Discourse 05 - The parallel course of events of Mt 24 and Rev 6 and 7.




The parallel course of events of Mt 24 and Rev 6 and 7. / Reply Marcus Franz 00, 2000-07-11

Does the Return take place after the plagues of the bowls? / Reply Marcus Franz 01, 2000-07-15

Is the Rapture at the 7th trumpet fixed to late? / Reply Anonym 00, 2000-07-17

Is the darkening of sun, moon and stars at the 5th bowl or at the 6th seal? / Reply Marcus Franz 02, 2000-07-25


(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(The parallel course of events of Mt 24 and Rev 6 and 7 / Reply MF00,2000-07-11)

It seems to be indisputable that also after the sixth seal (Rev 6,12) still many events will happen before the Lord’s return (plagues of the trumpets, plagues of the bowls). Certainly one cannot tell how long all this will last but Rev 9,5 indicates the duration of a certain judgment with 5 months, so that one can assume it will be a somewhat extended period. The darkness of Mt 24,29 but happens according to the text only AFTER the tribulation and seems directly to precede the return of the Lord. Therefore after all I still think that these are two different events (despite of conformity in certain details).

(Marcus Franz, XXXXmarcus1973@t-online.de / http://www.marcus1973.privat.t-online.de/endzeit.html


Here the relevant text:

The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky.

Mt 24,29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 24,30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 24,31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Mt 24,29-31;


Regarding the question of First Resurrection of Martyrs, the explanation of Marcus Franz further below (Rapture and First Resurrection a single event?) reads as follows: “other passages but show rather clearly that the resurrection takes place shortly before the return of the Lord and indeed with all the faithful“. In his statement to the sealed in Discourse 06: The 144.000 sealed, Israelites or congregation of the Last Days? it is said in the concrete “that the congregation will be caught up at the time of the 7th trumpet“. Since resurrection and rapture to him is a single event (see below) hence it follows that the return of the Lord will happen after the 7thtrumpet. If now, as told above, the darkness of Mt 24,29 directly comes before the return of the Lord, as a consequence, we would have to localize a “darkness“ in Revelation at the 7thtrumpet or at least at the 6th trumpet. But there is nothing.

Whereas much before at the 6th seal in Rev 6,12-13 we find an almost identical description of this event:

The sun became black, and the moon became like blood and the stars of the sky fell to the earth.

Rev 6,12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 6,13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. Rev 6,12-13;

(See also Chapter 04: “The Great Darkness.”)

Not only the darkening of sun and moon are the same in both texts but still more surprising is the fact that the Lord in Mt 24,29 completes “... and the stars will fall from heaven ....“, and in Rev 6,13 also John writes in his Revelation which he also received from the Lord Jesus : “... and the stars of heaven fell on the earth“.

Although there are some passages in the Scriptures - especially the OT - where sun and moon are darkened but this special completion “and the stars fall from heaven“ only exists two times in Mt 24,29 and in Rev 6,13.

Pursuing also the context of both passages it can be recognized that here we have a parallelism. As well as before we have for instance the 2nd seal Rev 6,3-4:

To take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one.

Rev 6,3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come.“ 6,4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him. Rev 6, 3- 4;


Moreover the parallel text in Mt 24,6-7:

Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

Mt 24,6 “You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 24,7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. Mt 24, 6- 7;


It continues with the 3rd seal in Rev 6,5-6 which obviously announces a famine:

A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius.

Rev 6,5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come.“ I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6,6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.“ Rev 6, 5- 6;


This famine is also announced in Mt 24,7:

In various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

Mt 24,7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. Mt 24, 7;


The 4th seal in Rev 6, 7-8 summarizes these events and testifies the results of these catastrophes:

Death was given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence.

Rev 6,7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come.“ 6,8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. Rev 6, 7- 8;


It is also a fourth of the human race, taking today’s figures about 1,7 billion people, which will have to die because of war, famine or pestilence. And this too we find documented in the discourse of the Lord on the Last Days, in Mt 24,22:

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; 

Mt 24,22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Mt 24,22;


When the Lord says here that "no life would have been saved" if these days had not been cut short, this means that it would not have been possible for a single human being to be saved if God were not to shorten these days for the sake of the elect – the congregation of the Last Days. And because of this very shortening, the tribulation will not kill "all life" – that is to say, the seven billion people of this world – but only, as we are told in the above passage (Rev 6,8), "a fourth of the earth", in other words something like 1.7 billion people. 

In succession at the 5th seal, Rev 6, 9-11, the martyrs demand vengeance of the Lord on their murderers. And they were told in verse 11: " that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also" - namely in the right now happening Great Tribulation.

The 6th seal carries the abovementioned darkening of sun and moon and falling of the stars and at the same time the end of the great tribulation and the beginning of the “Day of the Lord“. In the first part of this day - “Day of Revelation of the Lord“ - the Lord comes to raise and catch up those who are his and in the second part - the “Day of the Lord’s Wrath“ - the plagues of the bowls 1 - 7 will take place. Also Joel speaks of this:

The sun will be darkened and the moon like blood before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

Joel 2,30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. 2,31 “The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. Joel 3, 3- 4;


Following the sealing of the 144.000 in Rev 7,1-8, we then have a text in Rev 7,9-17 which repeatedly is omitted or expelled in this succession.

These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation.

Rev 7,9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 7,10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.“ 7,11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,7,12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.“ 7,13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?“ 7,14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.“ And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 7,15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 7,16 “They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 7,17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.““ Rev 7, 9-17;


It is the “great multitude from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues“ which are standing in heaven before the throne. And as the elder is explaining to John, these are the ones who came “out of the great tribulation“. But this means that at this moment the great tribulation already has come to an end.

(See also Chapter 03: “The Great Tribulation.”)

Also to this we find a parallel text in Mt 24,21-22: The Lord calls it: “such a great tribulation as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now ....“.

A great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Mt 24,21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 24,22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Mt 24,21-22;


And when we now look up once more the text quoted at the beginning in Mt 24,29-31, the Lord says there that immediately after this tribulation sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars will fall from the sky.

Mt 24,29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 24,30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 24,31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Mt 24,29-31;

(See also Chapter 06: “The Return of the Lord an the Rapture.”)

And as this text also tells “then“ the Lord will come on the clouds of the sky with his angels. The event which takes place “instantly“ after the tribulation is the darkness. From the return of the Lord it is told that it will “then“ happen without giving a more precise date. One but can be established as a fact, in any case it won’t be “instantly“ after the tribulation. Only then he will send His angels "with a great trumpet" to gather together his elect. The latter also Paul received in a revelation by the Lord as he wrote to the Thessalonians in 1 The 4, 15-17 and to the Corinthians in 1Cor 15, 51-52:

The Lord will come with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ and the living ones will be caught up.

1The 4,15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 4,16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 4,17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1The 4,15-17;


And in his letter to the Corinthians Paul defines: at the time of the last trumpet the dead in Christ will be raised and together with the living faithful be caught up.

At the last trumpet the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1Cor 15,51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 15,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1Cor 15,51-52;


What all these texts show very clearly is the rapture of the faithful from the congregation of the Last Days at the return of the Lord but after the great tribulation which comes to an end when skies are darkening and a quarter of all human beings - at least 1,7 billion people - have died because of war, famine and pestilence. At the time of the last trumpet the Lord comes on the clouds of the sky - especially for this purpose!! - and sends his angels to gather his elect. Thereby at first the dead will be raised and afterwards be caught up together with the living faithful to meet the Lord in the air.



(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

Does the Return take place after the plagues of the bowls? / Reply MF01, 2000-07-15)

It is correct that according to my interpretation the rapture takes place at the time of the 7th trumpet. One also can say that this will happen “shortly“ before the return of the Lord. Of course, the word “short“ has to be seen relatively, at my website I point out explicitly that the interval between rapture and second coming of the Lord cannot exactly be defined since the plagues of the bowls have to take place in any case before the return of the Lord. Revelation gives here a more detailed termination as other passages which describe the event of the return rather “compact“ and comprising. Therefore your understanding and conclusion of my statement, “....as a consequence to localize a ‘darkness’ in Revelation somewhere at the 7th trumpet or at least at the 6th trumpet.....“ is simply wrong. Once again: The return takes place after the rapture but also only AFTER the plagues of the bowls. And exactly there we find indeed an indication of a darkening in Rev 16,10 at the 5th bowl which to me fits much better to Mt 24,29 than your remark of Rev 6,12.3.

(Marcus Franz, XXXXmarcus1973@t-online.de / http://www.marcus1973.privat.t-online.de/endzeit.html )


The rapture is the return! It is the first appearance of the Lord at the Last Days and will take place visible to everybody. The imagination that the rapture will take place like a secret activity, whereby suddenly “whole groups of people“ will disappear in an invisible way is not supported by the Scriptures and also logically does not make any sense.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky.

Mt 24,29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 24,30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 24,31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Mt 24,29-31;

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven, and we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord.

1The 4,15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 4,16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 4,17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 4,18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.1The 4,15-18;


Just this is the Lord’s triumph that even all Gentiles will see there is a God and a Lord, his son Jesus Christ. The Lord will return several times after rapture . One time on Mount Zion and with him 144.000 (Rev 14,1) and then, of course, at the battle of Armageddon (Rev 19, 11-21). At the following Millennium the Lord anyhow always will be present.



(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(Is the Rapture at the 7th trumpet fixed to late? / Reply AN00, 2000-07-17)

You write: “At the time of the 7th trumpet the Lord comes on the clouds of the sky - especially for this purpose!! - and sends his angels to collect his elect. At this occasion the dead will rise first and then together with the living faithful be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

But before you refer to the great multitude from Rev 7, verse 9-17: It is the “great multitude from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues“ standing before the throne in heaven.

The 7th trumpet is in Rev 11, verse 15ff, but the great multitude already in Rev 7, verse 9ff. How comes now that these faithful already raised in Rev 7 when they only were caught up in Rev 11.

(Comment anonymous)



This comment anonymous from the year 2000 is absolutely correct and together with other hints from visitors two years later caused me to change my interpretation of the Return of the Lord and the Rapture - based upon the statement of Paul in 1Cor 15,52 - from the seventh trumpet into the time of the sixth seal.

(See also Discourse 48: “An alternative view of the sequence of events in the Last Days.”)

For raisons of objectivity the former argumentation can be looked up in the following. Concerning the distinction between rising up and resurrection it was quite right but with regard to the question of the commentator it unfortunately was wrong as seen retrospectively.

Here the wording in question:

These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation.

Rev 7,9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 7,10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.“ 7,11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,7,12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.“ 7,13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?“ 7,14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.“ And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 7,15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 7,16 “They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 7,17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.“ Rev 7, 9-17;


It is the “great multitude from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues“ which is standing in heaven before the throne. And how the elder explains to John, these are the ones who came “out of the great tribulation“. And as results from Rev 7,16, here we have faithful people who died during the great tribulation and not killed ones, also martyrs. The statement

“they will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore, nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat“

proves in a reverse conclusion that they suffered from hunger, thirst and great heat during their lifetime and in all probability died of it. Hence it becomes clear that this is not the “church of all times“ as sometimes presumed.

The opinion, this text is in contradiction with raising and Rapture at the 7th trumpet, reasoning that the faithful are in heaven before the throne already before the 7th seal, is absolutely correct. It would only be wrong when raising and Rapture is seen together with the First Resurrection - plainly the very first resurrection - and neither a temporary separation nor with regard to it’s contents is made between raising and resurrection. 

If one understands the first resurrection as a coming to life of martyrs which already are in heaven - a coming down to earth again - the raising of the dead is an own separate event, where the dead will be raised and caught up - exactly but the opposite procedure. And as we learn from Mt 27, 50-53, there are several of these raisings. 

We learn about another in Rev 6, 9-11 where exactly these martyrs coming to life later at the first resurrection, are still in heaven and ask the Lord for vengeance on their murderers. And they were told in verse 11: "that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also" - namely in Rev 13, in the time of the demonic Antichrist, the "beast out of the sea".

The third event of that kind is to be found here in Rev 7, 9-17 where also a great multitude of dead believers from the tribulation already was raised and is standing in heaven before the throne.

The events described by Paul in 1Cor 15, 50-55 respective 1The 4, 15-17 actually concern the raising of the dead in Christ and their rapture together with the living believers at the end of time.

(See also Discourse 56: “Are Christians who have died already in heaven?”)




(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(Is the darkening of sun, moon and stars at the 5th bowl or at the 6th seal? / Reply MF02, 2000-07-25)

Concerning the darkness: I do not actually think this question is very significant. As of already described reasons, I am nonetheless of the opinion that Rev 6,12 only refers to a temporary darkening of the sun which takes place (in terms of time) before Mt 24,29.

I would be interested to learn where in your interpretation you see the time for the darkening which takes place at the plague of the 5th bowl (Rev 16,10) and is thus much closer to the return of the Lord than Rev 6,12.

If I have understood you correctly, in your opinion the affliction of the faithful is over after the 6th seal. Here you show consistency as according to Mt 24,29 the darkening takes place AFTER the tribulation. So if Rev 6,12 and Mt 24,29 should be taken as identical, necessarily the affliction of the congregation has to be over with the 6th seal. On the other hand you write (perfectly correct) that the congregation will be caught up only with the 7th trumpet. So the plagues of the trumpets, too, must take place prior to this.

How, in your opinion, does this fit together? Is the congregation not affected by the plagues of the trumpets? Will the Antichrist cease persecution of the congregation already before? What do you think?

(Marcus Franz, XXXXmarcus1973@t-online.de / http://www.marcus1973.privat.t-online.de/endzeit.html ).


Here a comparison of the wordings in question. At first the beginning of Mt 24,29:

The sun will be darkened, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mt 24,29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Mt 24,29;


And then both texts which can be “selected“. At first the wording from Rev 6, 12-14 mentioned by me:

The sun became black, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, and the sky was split apart like a scroll.

Rev 6,12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;6,13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 6,14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6,12-14;


And now the text Marcus Franz pleads for:

The angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened.

Rev 16,10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, 16,11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds. Rev 16,10-11;


In my opinion it is clearly perceptible that Mt 24,29 has more in common with Rev 6, 12-14 than with Rev 16,10. I cannot see that Rev 6, 12-14 “only refers to a temporary darkening of the sun“. On the contrary: if a passage announces here a worldwide darkening it is Rev 6, 12-14. In Rev 10,16 the 5th bowl is poured out just on the throne of the beast and afterwards only his kingdom became darkened while in Rev 6, 12-14 the darkening of the sun, equally as Mt 24,29, inevitably implies a worldwide darkening.

I also cannot understand the indication that the darkening of the 5th bowl in Rev 16,10 is much closer to the Return of the Lord than the darkening of the heavenly bodies in Rev 6,12-14. If we allows ourselves to be guided by Mt 24 then we find next to the above darkening quite clearly visible to all human beings the Return of the Lord “with great power and glory“. At this return he will send forth his angels and they will gather together his elect from all over the world. This is the Rapture at the 7th and last trumpet as also described by Paul in 1 Cor 15,51-52 and 1 The 4,15-17.

All the tribes of the earth will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Mt 24,29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 24,30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 24,31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Mt 24,29-31;


However, the - locally limited - darkening in Rev 16,10 is part of the plagues of the bowls after the Return of the Lord and the Rapture.

An overview of all important events of the Last Days with an attempt to arrange them in terms of chronology of the close of the age can be found on the front page at “General survey”.

For a commentary on questions about the affliction:

(See also Discourse 09: “The Great Tribulation: an affliction of the faithful, or of the whole world?”)