Discourse 107 - The denial of the Trinity, the false Catholic teaching and the true Biblical Trinity




Was Jesus Christ only a man? / Commentary Jedida MD 00, 2011-06-12

The Trinitarian dogma of the Catholic church.

The Father.

The Holy Spirit.

The Son of God. / Commentary Jedida MD 01, 2011-06-12

The pre-existence of Jesus Christ.

Summary.

Is the Trinity only an activity of God in three persons?   -    Discourse 1072 - Part 2

Is belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?    -   Discourse 82



(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(Was Jesus Christ only a man? / Commentary SM00, 2011-06-12)

Shalom, dear brother! Thank you for your free of charge HP and the loads of valuable information! I found myself last week reading the article at Shema Yisrael ‒ Hear, O ISRAEL: the judgment of God on his people, in which you explained and “demonstrated” to a Jew in great detail that Yeshua was their Messiah. This is exactly what I have had in mind for some time ‒ to write a gospel for the Jews.

Now I wanted to ask you whether you would let me make use of your writings to bring this about? Of course I would be happy to state the source. One thing I don’t agree with, though, is your last paragraph:

Incidentally ‒ in the confession of faith of the Jews given in Deut 6,4: ”Hear, O Israel! The Eternal (YHWH) is our God, the Eternal is one!”, in the expression ”YHWH, our God” the Hebrew word for God (Elohim) is actually a plural, so that the literal translation would be ”YHWH, our gods”. An excellent analysis of the background to this may be found at http://www.amzi.org/html/schma_israel.html

An excellent analysis, you call it ‒ I think it is the total opposite of that ‒ I’m afraid! It is really a pity that Christians simply can’t agree on so many topics!!! If we can’t agree just about a single Hebrew word, we really aren’t going to get anywhere. One person bases his entire idea of God on this explanation, another person bases it on the other interpretation ‒ so it’s not getting anywhere! Personally I prefer to go with the following statements, which I find more convincing: ”The Lord (Yahweh), our God, is  o n e  Lord!” Mk 12:29 and the scribes confirmed Yeshua with the words, ”Right, Teacher; you have truly stated that he is  o n e,  and there is no one else besides him.” (12:32). The biblical God Yahweh Echad, ”Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is  o n e!” > Yahweh Echad Deut. 6:4. The meaning of the word echad, which is used here, is ”There is one alone and without a second” (Eccl. 4:8) Echad is a numerical adjective, it cannot possibly mean a composite unity and it describes the God of Israel as essentially being one person.

(…) But that’s what the Trinitarians are on about: they actually want to prove a God of multiple persons, who consists of three equal parts and the individual parts have the same value and importance as the totality, and that is not what Yahweh Echad means.

(…) When you must know all the texts, I find it quite surprising that you stick with the Catholic dogma of a three-headed hypostatic God-essence based on the Babylonian model???


Jedida MD info@liebezurwahrheit.dehttp://liebezurwahrheit.de



The Trinitarian dogma of the Catholic church.

Thank you for your visit to Immanuel.at and for your comments. You may use, copy and distribute the contents of Immanuel.at Web site for non-commercial, informational purposes only provided the Web site and author are mentioned.

The Catholic dogma of the Trinity postulates the unity in essence of God the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit. These are conceived as being three equally great persons or hypostases (essences) of the Trinity derived from God, but not as three substances or three gods.

The Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit which is advocated here at Immanuel.at differs fundamentally from the trinitarian dogma of the Catholic church and from other interpretations. Here we reject the many attempts of theologians and biblical commentators in both the past and the present to raise their profile by discoursing on this theme and reading every conceivable kind of ”complication” into it. Based on the biblical statements which will be rehearsed below, we avoid any such sophistical interpretations and will rather see things quite simply in the way that they are presented to us in Scripture.

And Scripture tells us that these three beings ‒ this ”threefoldness” ‒ are spiritual divine beings in the heavenly dimension in just the same way as three people here on earth are three human beings. And just as these three suppositious people are different in appearance, character and capabilities, so too these three spiritual essences differ in their natures. God the Father is, according to the Bible (and actually as the name itself tells us), the creator, ruler and governor, while God the Son (the Word) and the Holy Spirit ‒ again, in accordance with the Bible ‒ occupy a subordinate, executory position. So they are not ”three equally great persons” as the Catholic dogma incorrectly postulates.

As for the ”unity” of these three spiritual beings, which has frequently been discussed and has been the occasion of much speculation and controversy, it is evident that Scripture here documents for us what is a quite ”normal” state of affairs in the heavenly dimension, but which we in our human sphere can only fathom with difficulty. But these are nonetheless biblical facts, which can be demonstrated by many biblical passages.

Seeing that we human beings in this world generally think just in a physical and so material dimension, our understanding refuses to accept a unification of three material persons in one person. But if we apply the term ”the unity of the threefold” to water, for example, the entire business at once becomes much easier to understand. Water, after all, can occur, depending on the environment, in liquid, solid (ice) or gaseous form (water vapor). So these are three different states which also have different properties, and yet it remains just one element. It probably wouldn’t occur to anyone to claim that water can only come in liquid form, or that ice and steam are two different elements and not to be identified with water. And it’s a similar situation with the biblical Trinity.

But as we know from Scripture, God is not material but is spirit (Jn 4:24). And the two other beings likewise are spirit in the heavenly dimension. But they can also appear in material form on earth, as e.g. God the Eternal did to Ezekiel on his throne by the river Kebar (Eze 1:26), as the Son of God did to the disciples after his resurrection (Jn 20:26) or as the Holy Spirit appeared at the baptism of Jesus (Jn 1:32) ‒ and finally we find all three together when they appeared to Abraham (Gen 18:2). In the spiritual mode, however, it appears to be one of the properties of these beings that a spirit can dwell in another spirit, or for that matter in a human being. So God the Almighty for example dwelt in the spirit of his Son on earth (Jn 12:44 13:20 14:8-11).

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me?

Jn 14,8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
14,9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 14,10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 14,11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. Jn 14, 8-11;


But the demons as well, the former angels that is, who in the time of Jesus had just been thrown down onto the earth along with Satan after losing the battle in heaven against Michael and his angels, and who were driven out by Jesus from many possessed persons, had found a lodging in the spirit of human beings (Mt 8:28-32; Mk 1:34 16:9).

(See also Excursus 06: ”From the face of God into the lake of fire - the four stages of Satan.


So the Spirit of God and the Word of God are integral parts, in the spirit of the one and only God YHWH and so of divine character. But based on the statements of the Bible we know that God can on occasion detach them both, the Word and the Spirit, and send them out on separate missions. We aim to demonstrate this in what follows below.


The Father.

The biblical passages cited by Jedida MD above with reference to God are of course correct, and cannot be contradicted. Exactly that, after all, is what we also find in the statement made by the Lord in Mk 12,29-30:

Hear, o Israel! The LORD our God is one LORD.

Mk 12,29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, ‘Hear, o Israel! The LORD our God is one LORD; 12,30 and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ Mk 12,29-30;


Precisely this, of course, is the confession of faith of the Jews, derived from Deut 6,4: ”Hear, O Israel: the Lord (YHWH) is our God (Elohim), the LORD (YHWH) alone.” But the term Elohim in the statement ”YHWH is our God” is in the plural in the original Hebrew, so that a literal translation would be, ”The Lord (YHWH) are our gods (Elohim), the Lord (YHWH) alone”. And so this again gives us a demonstration of the existence of a Trinity, based on Scripture. The problem, then, is not the statements in Scripture about God as being the one and only, but rather the incapacity ‒ or unwillingness ‒ of the Anti-Trinitarians to grasp these connections.

But the assertion of the Anti-Trinitarians ”that the faith in one, sole and only God was the most important article of faith in primitive Christianity” is not just confirmed by the Old Testament. We find plenty of indications of this fundamental principle of faith in the New Testament as well.

For One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Mt 23,8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 23,9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 23,10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 23,11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 23,12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. Mt 23, 8-12;

Since God is one.

Rom 3,21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 3,22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 3,23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 3,24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 3,25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 3,26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 3,27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 3,28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 3,29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 3,30 since God is one who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 3,31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. Rom 3,21-31;

That there is no God but one.

1Cor 8,2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 8,3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 8,4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 8,5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 8,6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 1Cor 8, 2- 6;

Whereas God is only one.

Gal 3,18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 3,19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 3,20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 3,21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 3,22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 3,23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 3,24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 3,25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
3,26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 3,27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Gal 3,18-27;

For there is one God.

1Tim 2,1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2,2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 2,3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 2,4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2,5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 2,6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 2,7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1Tim 2, 1- 7;

One God and Father of all.

Eph 4,3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4,4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 4,5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4,6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 4,7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Eph 4, 3- 7;


These six scriptural passages do indeed all tell us that there is just one God and Father of all. But if we read more closely and consider the context of these six passages, we can see that in each and every one of them ‒ along with the mention of the one and only God ‒ the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, is referred to as well.

The following indications too, which demonstrate that both ‒ the Word, the later Son of God, and the Spirit of God ‒ were sent out by God the Father, and so were with God before their appearance on earth, confirm their divine nature.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Jn 1,1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1,2 He was in the beginning with God. 1,3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 1,4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 1,5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. Jn 1, 1- 5;

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..

Jn 1,14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 1,15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’". Jn 1,14-15;

He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19,11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 19,12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 19,13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.. Rev 19,11-13;

And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me.

Jn 5,36 "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish the very works that I do testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 5,37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 5,38 "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. Jn 5,36-38;

If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God.

Jn 8,42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Jn 8,42;


That ”the Word” became flesh, in other words became man, happened through the effect of the Spirit of God, which overshadowed Mary, the mother of Jesus, in the power of God, as reported by Lk 1,35.

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.

Lk 1,30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 1,31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 1,32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 1,33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end." 1,34 Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" 1,35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Lk 1,30-35;

For the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Mt 1,18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 1,19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 1,20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.. Mt 1,18-20;


And there we at once have the indication that the Holy Spirit too can be sent out on God’s orders, as also seen in the following biblical texts.

I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper.

Jn 14,16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 14,17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. Jn 14,16-17;

But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes.

Jn 16,13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 16,14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 16,15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. Jn b16,13-15;

Your heavenly Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!

Lk 11,13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" Lk 11,13;


The Holy Spirit.

There have already been some discussions with Anti-Trinitarians on this website (”The Trinity: an unbiblical concept?” Discourse 26, Discourse 263), and although the representatives of this point of view ‒ as the name suggests ‒ do dispute the divinity of both the Son and the Holy Spirit, they have never hitherto been particularly concerned, in the course of these arguments, with the divinity of the Holy Spirit. The main point at issue in these discussions was the divinity of Jesus Christ. And here the question naturally suggests itself why people should reject the idea of a Trinity, when that of a ”duality” ‒ of the Father and the Holy Spirit ‒ does not seem to present any problem for the Anti-Trinitarians.

And so this also suggests the question whether these people are actually thrashing the sack when they mean to hit the donkey? I mean to say, that perhaps these people are not so much concerned with the Trinity as such ‒ isn’t it rather the old attempt of the Jews and the ”friends of Israel” to rule out Jesus Christ as the Messiah, let alone as a divine being?

(See also Discourse 82: ”Is belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?”)


It is also notable that Anti-Trinitarians are often found to be particularly israelophile (Israel-friendly) Christians, sometimes coming from congregations with Jewish preachers of the ”Israel movement”. And seeing that the Jews have been abusing our Lord Jesus Christ as an impostor and blasphemer for two thousand years, it is of course hardly surprising to find these brethren rejecting Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as a divine being in his own right.

With the Holy Spirit it is a different matter. By contrast with the Son of God, the Spirit of God is mentioned right at the beginning of the Old Testament (the Jewish Tora) in the story of creation (Gen 1:2), and we also find it reported on countless occasions that the Spirit of God dwelt in or filled certain persons (e.g. Ex 31:3 35:31; 2Chr 15:1 25:20 etc. etc.). And in view of the fact that the Jews are happy to see it that way, evidently the Anti-Trinitarians don’t have any problem with it either.

The biblical proof that the Spirit of God is itself an integral part of God the eternal is to be found in Paul, in 1Cor 2,11:

Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

1Cor 2,10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 2,11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 2,12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 2,13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 1Cor 2,10-13;


So if the Holy Spirit searches the depths of God and is the only one to know what is in God, then it must necessarily be immanent in God. But seeing that we were able to demonstrate on the basis of the biblical passages quoted earlier that God can also send out the Spirit, and the latter is capable of acting independently, he must also be seen as a person.

The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name.

Jn 14,26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. Jn 14,26;


Likewise when Paul writes ‒ again in his first letter to the Corinthians ‒ that the Spirit acts on his own discretion, and on the basis of freely made decisions, once more confirms the status of the Spirit of God as a person.

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

1Cor 12,8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 12,9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 12,10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 12,11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. 1Cor 12, 8-11;


The Son of God.

Which would bring us now to the real question at issue in this always very passionately conducted discussion: is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, only and exclusively a human being, or was he himself God as well? On this subject the visitor quoted above writes as follows:


(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)

(Was Jesus Christ only a man? / Commentary SM01, 2011-06-13)

To find out the truth I first looked at what Scripture reveals to us about Yahweh God in the Old Testament, and then in the New Testament. Then I sought to fathom whether he presented himself as the Savior (Messiah). In this connection I found the announcement of the begetting of a son on a certain day (Ps 89,27-29; Heb 1,5; Ps 2) (…) as well as the prophecies of the Servant of God who would carry out God’s orders and whom he would supernaturally anoint with his Spirit for the purpose. This would be a man of the house of David and a prophet like Moses (I don’t need to tell you the texts).

My search to find whether God had said at any point that it was he himself who would come was fruitless, even though he describes himself as a Savior and Redeemer ‒ but he doesn’t say anywhere that he himself is the Messiah or that he would come in another form or even hypostasis or that he would actually be incarnated in a human being. And that likewise marks the limit of the awareness of the Son Yeshua in the Old Testament. (…)

The dogma of the Trinity includes the essential unity of the three hypostases. This unity would mean that they all have the same ranking and value. But unfortunately Scripture testifies to the contrary. How can the man Yeshua be identical in essence with God, when he describes him as ”his God” (Mt 27:46, Jn 20:17) and as ”his head” (1Cor 11:3; 15:28) or when he says of the Father, ”The Father is greater than I!”

(…) I acknowledge Yeshua before men as Redeemer and judge, and also as the giver of life - for this authority to give life, too, is something he has received from almighty God, not something he has of himself (Jn 17,2). 

Jedida MD info@liebezurwahrheit.dehttp://liebezurwahrheit.de



This point of view was concisely summed up by the Anti-Trinitarian anonymous in Discourse 26, when he writes:

”Jesus Christ was begotten by the Spirit of God (Heb 1,5; Lk 1,35) and was man (1Tim 2,5). Any views that go beyond this are not biblical.”


The above comments of Jedida MD show that you can argue with the Anti-Trinitarians till you’re blue in the face, but when they hear or read the word ”Trinity” it still sets off a kind of Pavlovian reflex in them: they immediately think of the trinitarian dogma of the Catholic church and no longer take in what you are actually saying or writing.

Our commentator then goes on to say that she looked for statements about the Son of God in the Old Testament and in the New Testament as well, to see whether God had said ”that he himself was the Savior (Messiah)” or ”whether God had said at any point that it was he himself who would come”. And this of course is an attempt to put the divinity of the Son in question.

It is hardly surprising, for one who knows the Bible, that she didn’t find what she was looking for in the Old Testament. Paul tells us, after all, in Romans that this was a mystery which had been kept secret for long ages, and for that reason the Old Testament would not contain any concrete statements on this subject.

The revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past.

Rom 16,25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 16,26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 16,27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen. Rom 16,25-27;


But those familiar with the Bible can find indications even in the Old Testament, as in the prophet Micah for instance:

His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.

Mi 5,2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." Mi 5, 2;


This is a prophecy that the Messiah is going to come from Bethlehem, the place where Jesus was born. And the psalmist too prophesies in Ps 45,6-7 that God the eternal has himself anointed his firstborn son and he therefore is the anointed one, the Messiah. And this person is called a God by the psalmist, who confirms that his throne is forever and ever:

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

Ps 45,6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 45,7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows. Ps 45, 6- 7;


But the very indication that our commentator was looking for ‒ to the effect, that is, that God says that he himself will come ‒ is to be found in the New Testament in twofold form:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Col 1,15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 1,16 For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ‒ all things have been created through Him and for Him.1,17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Col 1,15-17;


In the above passage (Col 1,15), Paul reveals to us that Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God. God is spirit, and so by definition without form and invisible to human beings. In order to make it possible for human beings to picture him, God sent his Son and came to human beings in this form.

Peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits, and from Jesus Christ.

Rev 1,4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 1,5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood. Rev 1, 4- 5;


The above statement (Rev 1,4), ”Peace from Him who is and was and who is to come”, is not talking about the Son but rather about God the Father in person, for it continues in the following verse (1,5), ”and from Jesus Christ”. This God, who is and was, the eternal and the almighty, he will actually come himself. And that will be in his Son Jesus Christ, to reign in the Millennial Kingdom.


The pre-existence of Jesus Christ.

The divinity of the Son of God can be demonstrated in the Bible based on his pre-existence before his becoming a man on earth. Let us just remark as a preliminary that the biblical passages cited at the outset, and others like them referring to the one and only God, are of course to be taken as an established article of faith, so that there can be no question here of a ”three gods” interpretation, or of anything like polytheism.

But this means, on the other hand, that the pre-existence of the two other Persons of the Trinity ‒ of the Lord Jesus, in this case ‒ is only conceivable in and with the one and only God, the Father. So we would like first to consider those scriptural passages which imply this unity of the Father and the Son.

He who has seen Me has seen the Father; believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.

Jn 14,8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 14,9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ’Show us the Father’? 14,10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.14,11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 14,12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.14,13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14,14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. Jn 14, 8-14;

In that day you will know that I am in My Father.

Jn 14,15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 14,16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 14,17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 14,18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 14,19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 14,20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 14,21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Jn 14,15-21;

The word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s.

Jn 14,22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?" 14,23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 14,24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. 14,25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 14,26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 14,27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 14,28 "You heard that I said to you, ’I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Jn 14,22-28;


The three extracts from the Gospel of John quoted above show clearly that the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son. This, though, is not to be understood as implying that God the Father himself was present on earth as Jesus Christ.

The Lord’s saying in Jn 14,9, ”He who has seen Me has seen the Father”, does not mean that the physical form of the Lord Jesus is identical with that of the Father. On the contrary, the external form is  wholly irrelevant to God’s identity. He can take on any form that he wishes, so that the physical appearance of his immanency is much the same as, for us human beings, the suit that we happen to be wearing. When we are introduced to a person, he will hardly suppose that the suit we have on is an integral component of our personality, or be unable to recognize us on the following day if we are wearing a different one.

But it is perfectly true, on the other hand, that God chose this quite definite physical body of his Son so as to reveal himself to humanity in visible form. In former times no one could see God, seeing that any one who caught a glimpse of God in his glory would have had to die. And subsequently as well, no one has ever seen God since.

But the actual presence of the Father was in the Spirit of the Son. After the baptism of the Lord by John, the Spirit of the Father descends on Jesus in the form of a dove, in Mt 3,16.

"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Mt 3,16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,3,17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Mt 3,16-17;


And it was then also this Spirit of the Father that spoke to the Spirit of the Son, and it was the words of the Father which the Son uttered. Consequently the Lord Jesus could also say, in Jn 14,24, ”The word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s”.

But here again we must not draw from this the conclusion that the Son was only a mouthpiece for the Father, and no more than a puppet. As we have seen earlier, the Son is a person in his own right, and has complete freedom of decision. But just as, shall we say, a bridegroom voluntarily and with joy responds to the invitation of the officiating pastor at a wedding, and pronounces his assent, so also the Son of God pronounces what the Father, in the Spirit, bids him say.

It must be admitted that the argument thus far has only succeeded in demonstrating at best that in the lifetime of the Lord Jesus the Father was immanent in him, so that he possessed the property of divinity to that extent. The pre-existence of Jesus Christ, as God and in God, has not yet been proved. For this we have to find statements in Scripture which will attest ‒ as far as possible ‒ to the community of the Son with the Father, before the birth of Jesus.

And here we now have the witness of the Lord himself in Jn 6,38:

I have come down from heaven.

Jn 6,36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 6,37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 6,38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 6,39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 6,40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." Jn 6,36-40;

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Jn 3,12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 3,13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 3,14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 3,15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. Jn 3,12-15;


If the Lord has come down from heaven, in all consistency he must have been with the Father in heaven before the start of his life on earth.

But in the writings of Paul, as well, we come upon the following representative statement about the Lord in his first Epistle to the Corinthians:

Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

1Cor 8,5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 8,6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 1Cor 8, 5- 6;


This indication is interesting because it definitely states that all things exist through Jesus Christ. And if we are to take this statement seriously, then ”all things” must really mean all things ‒ that is to say, the entire creation, the entire cosmos.

This is just what we are likewise told by Paul, in specific terms, in his Epistle to the Colossians:

All things have been created through Him and for Him, He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Col 1,15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 1,16 For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ‒ all things have been created through Him and for Him.1,17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Col 1,15-17;


All things ‒ in the heavens and on earth ‒ have been created through Jesus Christ. And he existed before all things, and in him all things hold together.

This means, then, not just that the Son of God existed before he became man, but that he actually preceded the whole creation, and the entire creation was made by him. But seeing that the creation can only have happened through the agency of God, this consequently confirms that the Son was a part of the one and only God, already at a time preceding the creation.

There are indications of this in the Old Testament as well, in the prophet Micah, for example:

His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.

Mi 5,2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." Mi 5, 2;


Here the prophecy is made that the Messiah will go forth from Bethlehem, the town where Jesus was born. And then the prophet adds:

 ”His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.”


And the psalmist too prophesies in Ps 45,6-7 that God the eternal has himself anointed his firstborn son and he therefore is the anointed one, the Messiah. And here we are told of the Son:

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

Ps 45,6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 45,7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows. Ps 45, 6- 7;


This also finds confirmation in the biblical passage cited by our visitor in her comments quoted above ‒ Hebr 1,5, that is, in the Letter to the Hebrews. The author of this letter specifically refutes the assertion of the Jews that while Jesus might possibly be an angel, he could not on any account have been God ‒ using all the arguments at his disposal, including and above all arguments based on the Old Testament. For this reason, too, it would have been strange if we were to fail ‒ as Jedida MD says that she failed ‒ to find any indication of the divinity of the Son of God. And indeed that is how it turns out. If we just look three verses further on, in Hebr 1,8 we find the following:

Of His Son God says: "Your throne, o God, is forever and ever.".

Hebr 1,5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are my son, today I have begotten you"? And again, "I will be a father to him and he shall be a son to me"? 1,6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "and let all the angels of God worship him." 1,7 And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." 1,8 But of the Son He says, "Your throne, o God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of his Kingdom. 1,9 "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; ther3fore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions." Hebr 1, 5- 9;


In the above words taken from Ps 45,8, God the Almighty himself thus names his Son as a God. And this is confirmed by the prophet Micah: ”His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity” (Mic 5,2). And precisely that is what our Lord Jesus Christ gave the Jews to understand, when they had doubts about his pre-existence:

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.

Jn 8,53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?" 8,54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ’He is our God’; 8,55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 8,56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

8,57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 8,58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 8,59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. Jn 8,53-59;


Here Jesus says to the Jews, ”Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” And just as Jedida MD says above, ”This (Jesus) would be a man of the house of David and a prophet like Moses”, so the Jews of that time said likewise, ”You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” And here the Lord answers the Jews: ”Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” ‒ This answer then is addressed to the Antitrinitarians as well, so long as they do not want to give the Lord grounds to reproach them with being liars.

Christ Jesus who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.

Phil 2,5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 2,6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 2.7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 2.8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Phil 2, 5- 8;


With that, the pre-existence and divinity of Jesus Christ are unambiguously proved by the Old and the New Testament as well.

But in being born on earth Christ did not become man in order to rule, but in order to save human beings. So as to satisfy the absolute justice of the Father, he had to die as the vicarious sacrifice for all the sins of the entire human race. And that is why he voluntarily gave up his divinity and became a mortal human being. Seeing that a God cannot die, Jesus Christ – the Son of God and himself God – gave up his divinity for a short time out of love for humanity, in order to be able to supply this redeeming sacrifice through his death on the cross for the salvation of all human beings.

But we can find further texts in the Bible as well which do not just confirm the pre-existence of the Lord Jesus, but also demonstrate that as the ”Word of God” he carries out the creative will of the Eternal, and so that all world were made by him.

In His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Hbr 1,1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 1,2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 1,3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb 1, 1- 3;


So when in Gen 1,3 it is written ”Then God said”, it was the Word of God, the second Person of the Trinity, who here acted in the name of his Father.

The "Word" we find also in Revelation and other texts of John:

Rev 19,11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 19,12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 19,13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Rev 19,11-13; (That is Jesus Christ)

Jn 1,1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  (That is Jesus Christ)

1Jn 2,13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. (That is Jesus Christ)


And for good measure we meet with the same point in John as well, at the beginning of his Gospel, in what amounts to a thoroughgoing and specific confirmation:

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Jn 1,1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1,2 He was in the beginning with God. 1,3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 1,4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 1,5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

1,6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 1,7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 1,8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 1,9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.1,10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 1,11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.1,12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,1,13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

1,14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 1,15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’" 1,16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 1,17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 1,18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. Jn 1, 1-18;


John speaks here of the ”Word”, and from the larger context of this passage it may be recognized that he is speaking of the Lord Jesus. John likewise confirms: ”All things came into being through Him (the ”Word” = Jesus Christ), and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”

And then this passage gives us just the statement that we have been looking for:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

-  Just like Paul, as we have seen, so John also tells us that the Son of God pre-existed the entire creation: ”In the beginning was the Word”.

-  And just like Paul, John also tells us that all things were created through the Son of God: ”All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”

-  Likewise our previous conclusion that the Son must therefore have already been present in the one and only God before the whole of creation finds confirmation here: ”And the Word was with God”.

-  And finally we are here given an unambiguous and indisputable answer to the question about the divinity of Jesus Christ from which we started: ”And the Word was God.”


In view of this demonstration, and in the light of the scriptures, it cannot any longer be doubted that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, existed previously to his becoming man. He even preceded the entire creation. He was in God, and he himself was God. He was not God the Father, but he was as a divine nature the "Word", who as Son of God later should become man.

And as the Lord tells us in the following passage, Jn 17,1-5, he did not simply pre-exist, but in the same manner he enjoys a ”post-existence” as well. Since his Raising and Ascension to the Father, he has been glorified once more with the glory which he had before the world was.

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jn 17,1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 17,2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 17,3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 17,4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 17,5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Jn 17, 1- 5;


On the basis of these conclusions, we can return to the beginning of this analysis. As the Lord himself says in Mt 23,9, we have only one father, namely our Father in heaven. He refers to himself here as a ”leader”.

One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Mt 23,9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 23,10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. Mt 23, 9-10;


In John as well we find statements made by the Lord in which he confirms that the Father is greater than all, and likewise greater than himself.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all.

Jn 10,27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 10,28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.19,29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.10,30 "I and the Father are one." Jn 10,27-30;

For the Father is greater than I.

Jn 14,28 "You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Jn 14,28;


And this statement was also found earlier on in Paul (1Cor 8,4), who is constantly reminding us that ”there is no God but one”.

All these passages witness unambiguously to the fact that Jesus Christ ‒ although himself a part of this one God, and so divine himself ‒ is subordinate to his Father, just as an earthly son is subject to his father. But from this we cannot infer that he is not God ‒ as was demonstrated earlier ‒ nor can we draw from it the conclusion that we humans would not have to pay him any particular regard, and would do better to address ourselves only to the Father directly.

As the following texts prove, quite to the contrary, the Father saw fit to commit all his authority to the Son. And here we may assume that God will not either break his word or revoke his disposition.

The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

Jn 3,35 "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 3,36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Jn 3,25-26;

All things have been handed over to Me by My Father.

Mt 11,25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 11,26 "Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 11,27 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Mt 11,25-27;

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Mt 28,17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 28,18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Mt 28,17-18;

No one comes to the Father but through Me.

Jn 14,6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 14,7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." 14,8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jn 14, 6- 8;


All authority has been given to the Son, and any one who supposes that in spite of this he might be able to obtain something from the Father directly is committing a fatal error. The Father has completely withdrawn from the exercise of authority, committing his authority to the Son. Only what we ask in the name of the Son will be well pleasing to the Father. One who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father either.

The Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father

Jn 16,23 "In that day (sc. of the resurrection of the Lord) you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. 16,24 "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full. 16,25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.

16,26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; 16,27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 16,28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father." Jn 16,23-28;



The Lord’s statement above, in Jn 16,27, documents the foundations of our Christian faith. What then does it mean ”to believe in Jesus Christ”? Exactly what the Lord tells us here: 


because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father”.


That is the real and true faith in Jesus Christ. And it is just this that the Anti-Trinitarians not only put in question ‒ they even deny it quite patently, and lead astray correctly believing Christians so that they too apostasize from their faith in Jesus Christ.



They truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

Jn 17,5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 17,6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 17,7 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 17,8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. Jn 17, 5- 8;

He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Jn 5,22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 5,23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Jn 5,22-23;

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1Jn 2,22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 2,23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 2,24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1Jn 2,22-24;


The above passage, 1Jn 2,22-24, speaks of the Antichrist, who will deny that Jesus is the Christ. This is one of those passages which encourage us to suppose that the Antichrist will appear as a ”substitute Christ”. He will claim to be the real ”Christ”, the real ”Son of God”, and will endeavor to prove this by signs and miracles. Of course then he must also deny that Jesus was the true Christ and the true Son of God. 

He can only implement this strategy, admittedly, if the image of Jesus of Nazareth by that time has already been cast in a suitably negative light. One possible method of paving the way through ”character assassination” would of course be to deny Jesus his divine Sonship, through refusing to recognize his divinity and demoting him to an ordinary human being. If this view should prevail, it would be an easy matter for the Antichrist when he comes to give the impression, through the exercise of his satanic conjuring powers, that he is now the real ”Christ/Messiah”, the real ”Son of God” and that Satan is the real ”God the Father”.

And here Ms. Jedida MD writes, in her comments quoted earlier:

”I acknowledge Yeshua before men as Redeemer and judge, and also as the giver of life - for this authority to give life, too, is something he has received from almighty God, not something he has of himself (Jn 17,2). ”

It is interesting how some people are quite near at the truth, but then repeatedly miss the point in their reading of the actual text. Just three verses further on from the biblical passage referred to by Ms. Jedida MD she could have found the answer to her statements - when the Lord says:

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jn 17,5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Jn 17, 5;


What glory can the human being "Yeshua" possibly have had "before the world was"? And how can the human being "Yeshua" have been with God "before the world was" when he was only born as a human being in Israel about the year 6 BC?

This whole line of argument of the Antitrinitarians is so laughable and so transparent - notably in the way in which here, evidently under the influence of Jewish preachers and their false doctrine, they attempt to deny the divinity of the Son of God. These Jews suffer from the "Jesus syndrome" - they know on the subconscious level that they are guilty of the murder of God. But they do not want to admit that they condemned their Messiah, the Son of God to death two thousand years ago. So they abuse him to this day as an impostor and blasphemer, and also indoctrinate credulous Christians and induce them to spread this doctrine in the Christian world. It is the seed of the evil one, the Antichrist, which is being propagated here. 

Apart from this it is however a peculiar fact that any one would agree that a child born of the union of two different races of humanity combines the genes of his two parents, and is characterized by these both physically (skin color, physique), psychologically (mentality, character) and mentally (intelligence and talents). Only when the child springs from the union between God and man is the fact disputed, the assertion being made that the Son of God inherited only the genes of his mother, and so was only man and not God.

He who does not believe in the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Jn 3,35 "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 3,36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Jn 3,35-36;


He who believes in the Son, has the Father as well; but he who denies the Son does not have the Father either, and the wrath of God abides on him.

Especially in view of this last statement made here, in Jn 3,36, it may be recognized that a discussion of the Trinity is completely outmoded. However one chooses to see God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, one sole thing is decisive: that is, whether we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God ‒ as the Son of God and God himself, that is ‒ and are obedient to him, or not. If we do, we will also have the Holy Spirit, and with his help, the right understanding of the one and only God, our Father in Heaven. If we do not obey the Son, we cannot be pleasing to God, and any amount of theological sophistry will not save us from his wrath.

A popular image, in this connection, is that of the Jehovah’s Witnesses:

”Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, and yet its light is not of equal birth with the source from which its light derives, the sun, so in the same way Jesus is a reflection of the glory of God, without his glory being of equal birth with that of God.”

This statement, now, is incorrect, inasmuch as Scripture teaches us the exact opposite:

For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father.

Mt 16,27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Mt 16,27;

When He comes in the glory of His Father.

Mk 88,38 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." Mk 8,38;


When he comes, the Lord will not be a ”reflection” of the glory of God: he will come, on the contrary, in the very glory of his Father, without any kind of diminution.

Furthermore, the simile just quoted completely misses, in logical terms, the point of the unambiguous utterances of Holy Scripture. If we stay with the ”sun” of this comparison, it is an objective fact that sunlight ‒ the light radiated from the sun ‒ derives from the process of nuclear transformation on the sun’s surface. From this it follows that the real source of sunlight is the fusion of helium and hydrogen atoms.

And just as the sun could give us neither light nor heat without nuclear fusion, so without Jesus Christ neither grace nor mercy would be granted us by God. Only through the vicarious death of the Son of God on the cross for our sins we can get forgiveness from God and his love and mercy.

Therefore God the Almighty has sent his Son Jesus Christ as a light to the world, as the following scriptural passages testify.

In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Jn 1,1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1,2 He was in the beginning with God. 1,3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 1,4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 1,5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. Jn 1, 1- 5;

I am the Light of the world.

Jn 8,12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." Jn 8,12;

I have come as Light into the world.

Jn 12,46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.12,47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 12,48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 12,49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 12,50 "I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." Jn 12,46-50;


One who rejects this light that the Father has sent into the world rejects God himself and will be judged on the Last Day by all those words which he was unwilling to accept, in spite of having read them.

And now anonymous asserts as quoted above in Discourse 26:

Jesus Christ was begotten (…) and was a man. Any views that go beyond this are not biblical.

If we consider the biblical passages following, however, we will come to a completely different conclusion:

Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.

Phil 2,5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 2,6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 2,7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 2,8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 2,9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 2,10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Phil 2, 5-10;

For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him because He was making Himself equal with God.

Jn 5,17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." 5,18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. Jn 5,17-18;


While Paul here confirms, in his Epistle to the Philippians, that Christ Jesus was in the form of God and equal to God, John reports that precisely this was what the Jews disputed, so that they actually sought to kill him because he said that God was his Father, and so declared that he himself was also God.

We see, then, that the view that Jesus Christ was not God, but just a human being, was also represented at that time among the Jews. And just this complaint, that he was a man and yet claimed to be God, indeed was later the reason why the high priest condemned Jesus to death for having blasphemed against God.

He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy.

Mt 26,59 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death. 26,60 They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, 26,61 and said, "This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.’"

26,62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 26,63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 26,64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. 26,65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; 26,66 what do you think?" They answered, "He deserves death!" 26,67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him, 26,68 and said, "Prophesy to us, You Christ; who is the one who hit You?" Mt 26,59-68;


And then, too, in Jn 20,28-29 we have the story of Doubting Thomas:

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!

Jn 20,26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 20,27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

20,28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 20,29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Jn 20,26-29;


Thomas here addresses the Lord as ”My Lord and my God!”. And whereas John reports in Revelation (Rev 22,9) that the angel before whom he fell down, taking him for God, told him: ”Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God”, Jesus here replied: ”Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” Jesus, then, did not contradict Thomas when he referred to him as his God.

And Peter also writes in his second letter:

Who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Per 1,1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Pet 1, 1;


And finally John also gives quite specific expression, in his first Epistle, to the fact that Jesus Christ is the true God:

We are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

1Jn 5,20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 1Jn 5,20;


These then are unambiguous and irrefutable proofs, based on Scripture, that Jesus Christ - besides of the Father who is greater than he, was himself also God.

Any one who denies that Jesus Christ is God, and asserts that he was only a man, is therefore accusing him of that same "blasphemy" which gave the high priest a reason to condemn him to death. He thus condemns him once more, and strikes him in the face as well, as the Jews did then, and brands the Lord as a cheat and confidence trickster into the bargain.



Summary:

The way in which the Trinity is represented in the Bible shows that both the Son and the Holy Spirit come from God ‒ and so were before with God and in God ‒ and that both were sent by God into this world for the sake of humanity ‒ so that they can exist and act in spatial (not spiritual!) separation from God, as personal entities in their own right.

These statements find support in the following scriptural passages:

For the Son, in Jn 8,42:

I proceeded forth and have come from God.

Jn 8,42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Jn 8,42;

I have come down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent me.

Jn 6,36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 6,37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 6,38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 6,39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 6,40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." Jn 6,36-40;

I and the Father are one.

Jn 10,27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 10,28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.19,29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.10,30 "I and the Father are one." Jn 10,27-30;


For the Holy Spirit, in Jn 15,26:

The Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son.

Jn 15,26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me. lJn 15,26;


The Biblical Trinity

There is just the one and only God in his three authorities: God the Father as the legislative authority, comparable with the legislature in human society; the Holy Spirit as the authority of execution, similar to the political executive arm; and the Son of God as the judicial authority, like the court of justice. God has given human beings the law and the commandments (Ex 24:12), the Holy Spirit registers the extent to which people observe them, but only intervenes when human actions might otherwise contravene God’s plan (2Thess 2:7), and the Son of God will judge every single human being (Jn 5:22) at the Last Judgment.

In this age of quantum entanglement – with its “spooky action at a distance”, as Einstein termed it – the independent spiritual personality of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and their simultaneous presence (Jn 14:10-11) in the spirit of the one God (Jn 4:24), can only be a problem for people living today if they are completely uninformed. In addition, the Bible gives us numerous examples of manifestations of spirit in the spirit of human beings (Mk 1:23-25; 5:6-8; Lk 3:24; but also Jn 14:23; 17:26!).

The attempt to explain relations of this nature on the basis of the ancient wisdom of the Fathers of the Church (Council of Nicea etc.) was already erroneous in view of their assertion that the earth is the center of the universe (The Creation.) and might be regarded today as comparable to the attempt to explain quantum mechanics by the laws of classical physics.

The actual reason why the Unitarians reject the Trinity (There is no salvation apart from the Trinity / C H. Spurgeon), is, first of all, the fact that they refuse to accept the divinity of the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ as God (Ps 45:7-8; Jn 20:28; Phil 2:5-6; 2Pet 1:1; 1Jn 5:20) and even his pre-existence (Gen 1:26; 11:7) not to mention his post-existence with God (Jn 14:23; 17:26!), would call in question their entire false structure of faith with its "human Jesus" as a "faith fighter", "pal" or "model of suffering" and reduce it to absurdity.

But on the other hand the doctrine of the three in one – the Trinity – was interpreted for centuries by the Catholic church according to the whim and "feelings" of the old Church Fathers (Council of Nicea etc.) and not in accordance with the Bible’s statements. As a result it was easy for the representatives of "faith in the one God" – the Unitarians – to question this in the light of the Bible.

But unfortunately the opportunity was missed of studying the Bible in depth and determining what it actually says about the essence of God, his Son and the Holy Spirit – instead, people just made use of superficial arguments to rebut this equally incorrect Trinitarian dogma of the Catholic church.




Is the Trinity only an activity of God in three persons? -    Discourse 1072 - Part 2