Is there such a thing as a "pre‒Adamic period"? / Commentary by HU 00, 2017-12-07
The war in heaven.
The pre‒Adamic era.
Who are the real Jews?
The glory of Trump’s being elected President should be given to God. / John S. Torell
(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)
Dear Mr. Horak,
I have been interested for some time in the "primeval history" of the earth, and have found an interesting website in this connection, that of the preacher and Bible teacher John S. Torell. In his biblical interpretation he describes a "pre‒Adamic period" in the history of the earth, advancing a number of biblical passages which permit the conclusion that before the creation of humanity, earth was inhabited by what may have been "angelic civilizations", before it was destroyed because of their rebellion and the ensuing galactic wars (Mars and the surface of the moon can be seen as evidence) and then "repeopled" by God with human beings. This would of course be rather similar to what Erich von Däniken has tried to "prove" in many books, based on some very old Assyrian and Babylonian scripts and symbols on stones from the dawn of history.
Details of this, and his conclusions based on a number of biblical verses, may be found here:
As I am greatly concerned to find out whether these "indications" could be genuine, I would like to ask you today what you think about it.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Thank you very much for visiting Immanuel.at, and for your comments.
After a first look at John S. Torell’s website, I saw that it would be worth taking the trouble to make a close scrutiny of his other statements as well, before I state my position in relation to your question about the "pre-Adamic period".
Of course it is also a matter of taking something of a look at all the statements of this author, with a view to seeing whether this "pre-Adamic period" amounts to an isolated assertion in the context of the rest of his quite copious interpretations of the Bible, or whether it is a concept that can be traced throughout his biblical commentaries.
And here, first of all, we can comment favorably that Torell works much of the time with biblical texts, and frequently, too, gives the text in full rather than just inserting a reference. But like the majority of American biblical commentators, he focuses for the most part – at least in the link you sent me – on the Old Testament (Genesis, Job, Kings 2, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc.), and then he does fall into some contradictions.
So he quotes Job 38,1-7, for example, and then asserts:
"ALL ANGELS ARE HOLY AND CREATED WITHOUT SIN"
and then, just a few lines further on, arrives at what is more likely to be the biblically accurate statement that
"NOT ALL ANGELS ARE ALIKE"
Now the angels were created "holy" and without sin, just as the human beings Adam and Eve were. But since both classes – angels and human beings – were created
with free will, it is very unlikely that this would remain the case in the course of their further existence in all cases. Every angel and every human being has received from God the freedom to make their own decisions, also including the most important decision of all – where they choose to confess this God, their Creator, or not.
It was the "war in heaven", as Torell quite rightly recognizes, where the angelic world – though this happened two thousand years ago, and not, as Torell thinks, in
"pre-Adamic times" – took this decision. A third of all the angels decided for the tempter Satan and so against God. There then followed a war in heaven, in which Satan and his angels fought and lost against the remaining two thirds of the angels, under the leadership of the Archangel Michael. Satan, the "dragon" was then thrown down to the earth, where the fallen angels continue to exist – though invisible to human beings – in the spaces of the air.
The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and were thrown down to the earth.
Rev 12,7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 12,8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
12,9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Rev 12, 7- 9;
The biblical fact that this war in heaven took place when our Lord Jesus Christ was still alive is confirmed by numerous passages in the Bible:
I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Lk 10,17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 10,18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Lk 10,17-18;
Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath.
Rev 12,12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." Rev 12,12;
How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning.
Isa 14,12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! Isa 14,12;
And the tail of the dragon swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
Rev 12,3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 12,4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. Rev 12, 3- 4;
Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
Jn 12,28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." 12,29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him." 12,30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 12,31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. Jn 12,28-31;
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming.
Jn 14,28 You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. 14,29 And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place, you may
believe. 14,30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has
no power over me; 14,31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may
know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go hence. Jn 14,28-31;
He will convict the world concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Jn 16,7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 16,8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 16,9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 16,10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 16,11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. Jn 16, 7-11;
(See also Exkursus 06: "From the face of God into the lake of fire - the four stages of Satan.")
And the information that Satan and his angels continue to exist in this world today in the spaces of the air, and that God has given Satan power over the kingdoms of this world, has been handed down to us by the apostle Paul.
The prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience
Eph 2,1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2,2 in which you
formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of
the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Eph 2, 1- 2;
The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.
2Cor 4,3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4,4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the
unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God. 2Cor 4, 3- 4
The world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness under the heavenly place.
Eph 6,12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness under the heavenly places. Eph 6,12;
(See also discourse 1042: „Are all governments of the world ordained by God?”)
So it looks as if God created Satan for this purpose, or else from a certain point of time, in the development of this angel, assigned him the role of tempting human beings – from Adam and Eve right through to the Last Day – and so giving them the possibility of using their God-given freedom of the will in order to decide for or against God. Satan was thus intended to separate the "chaff" from the "wheat". And just that was the purpose for which God actually gave him, two thousand years ago, power over "all the kingdoms of the world".
Consistently enough, he at once proceeded to try to lead astray his greatest antagonist, the Son of God, who was living as a human being on earth, and offered him "all this authority" provided that Jesus would worship him, the devil.
To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me.
Lk 4,5 And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 4,6 and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory;
for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 4,7 If you,
then, will worship me, it shall all be yours." 4,8 And Jesus answered him, "It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’" Lk 4, 5- 8;
But yet another consequence of this text should not be overlooked. The fact that Satan points to here – that all power over the kingdoms of this world had been assigned him by God – was not called in doubt by the Son of God. As with the other temptations, here too the Lord only referred to the relevant biblical commandment: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve". If the devil had been lying here – and it is his job, after all – the Lord would undoubtedly have refuted him.
But this makes it clear that the world has been directed by the devil for two thousand years. As we can understand from this biblical passage, it is he who appoints all the governments of nations – including the Vatican State. Since the Roman empire all those exercising power – whether they are emperors, kings, Popes or dictators (and democratically elected statesmen and stateswomen are no exception) – have been influenced and kept in leading strings by the devil.
It may be that some of these people were able to withstand Satan’s influence, but then they cannot have remained for long in responsible positions. And when we look at world history over the last two thousand years – from the emperor Nero, through the sinister Middle Ages to Hitler, Hiroshima and Nagasaki – we can see that this biblical prophecy has come to pass indeed, in all its tragic aspects. God has given humanity freedom of decision, and human beings have taken this world right into the arms of the devil.
But in the end Satan will take large parts of the human world into damnation in the same way – just as he seduced and led astray a third of the angels and led them to perdition. And we have reason to fear that in the human world – by contrast with the angelic world – less than two thirds will escape the clutches of the devil. The Bible speaks of some four billion people who will be destroyed by the wrath of God, on the Day of his Wrath alone (Rev 6:8; Rev 9:15).
(See also discourse 65: „The two men in the field (Mt 24,40): who will be taken, and who will be left?” )
So that is the biblical reality of Satan and the angels. And as we can see, all this started with the war in heaven in Jesus’ lifetime (Rev 12:7-9), seeing that he, after all, was the one who said:
Lk 10,18 "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."
And as we have likewise seen, there are of course prophecies which point to this unique event in heaven (e.g. Isa 14:12; Rev 12:12).
But unfortunately Pastor Torell has failed to recognize the further implications, and relocates this war to the "pre-Adamic period". And here he gets carried away, in his biblical interpretations, into elaborate fantasies of science fiction, involving "space wars", "space ships", "energy weapons" and "destroyed planets":
(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitorsto the site or other authors.)
Lucifer contacted every angel civilization and presented himself as a powerful alternate for God, and one third of the angels believed him and joined him in the rebellion. Lucifer and his followers then manufactured "space ships," which were equipped with weapons, to be used in the coming war, which aimed at subduing the angel civilizations that had opted to stay with God. Lucifer’s plan must have been that once he had defeated the Holy Angels, he would turn all of his might on God Himself and attack Him in the third heaven.
Instead of winning this war, which must have devastated whole planets in the universe, Lucifer was defeated by the Holy Angels under the command of Michael, the Archangel, described as one of the chief princes (Archon) in heaven (Daniel 10:12-13).
With the ability that mankind has today in viewing planets in our own solar system, we can see that the surfaces, for example, on the Moon and Mars are extremely scarred and scientists cannot explain how these surfaces ended up so damaged. Knowing about the space war will explain that battles must have been fought on these surfaces and with the superior weapons of lasers, particle beams and other sophisticated weapons of energy, that we as humans do not know of at this time, we can now understand why these surfaces are damaged. After all, the Bible tells us that the earth itself was without form and void, the Hebrew text describes it as "a formless void or chaos." (Genesis.1:2) Certainly God did not start out creating the earth in chaos.
http://www.eaec.org/newsletters/2005/NL2005May-Jun.htm / Baptist Preacher Pastor John S. Torell, USA
But this last statement of Torell’s above – "Certainly God did not start
out creating the earth in chaos" – is in my view completely correct – even if not in the
sense in which it is evidently meant. The Hebrew text here, in Gen 1,2, speaks of
"tohuwabohu" (Hebrew תהו ובהו, tōhū-wā-vōhū, generally translated as "formless and void").
Gen 1,2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters (NSAS95)
"Tohuwabohu" designates a hopeless confusion, and has also been modernized
as "confusion" and/or "chaos". Martin Buber and Franz Rosenzweig "Germanized" (Buber’s own term) the Hebrew Torah (the four books of Moses). They wanted to stay as close as possible to the Hebrew original, and did not mind if this sometimes involved having to invent words of their own in German. And they translated this Hebrew term very accurately as "error and confusion". The following half sentence of this verse was translated by Buber and
Rosenzweig not as "and darkness was over the surface of the deep", but as "darkness over
face of primeval whirl".
As Torell also writes above, the traditional translation – "formless and void" and "darkness over the surface of the deep" – was actually hard to make sense of as a reference to the planet earth. "Error and confusion" and "darkness over face of primeval whirl" make it clear to me that this description must relate not to the creation of the earth – much more likely it points to God’s very first act of creation, the creation of the universe in the Big Bang. And there we can most definitely speak of the chaos of the beginning, of a "tohuwabohu" and "primeval whirl".
(See also excursus12: "The Creation.")
With reference to Torell’s other statements and assertions above, we have to say that the dimension of God – by contrast with our universe of space and time – is beyond space and time, and immaterial. All angels are, just like God himself (Jn 4:24), spiritual beings and can for example penetrate the spirit of a human being, if the latter allows it. Of this we have sufficient examples in the Bible, where angels who have fallen from heaven with Satan in the time of Jesus (now no longer angels but demons) penetrated the spirit of human beings and were expelled thence by Jesus, e.g. Lk 8:26-33 (a Roman legion, please note, had at the time around 6000 men).
So this war in heaven was not an affair of "space ships" and "energy weapons", but took place on a spiritual level. In the process no planets, let alone our whole universe of space and time, would have been damaged. And the craters on the moon and on Mars, similarly, are naturally not attributable to "ray guns" from a "space war", but are purely and simply the result of impacting meteors and small asteroids.
(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)
In the Book of Revelation, we have the following accounts of this pre-Adamic time:
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Revelation 12:3-4
This is the reference in the Bible that tells us that Lucifer was able to convince one third of the angels to rebel against God. The result was a devastating war raging throughout the entire universe. Here is how the Bible tells it:
http://www.eaec.org/newsletters/2005/NL2005May-Jun.htm / Baptist Preacher Pastor John S. Torell, USA
As already mentioned, Torell is quite correct here in recognizing the immediate circumstances of this war in heaven from the Revelation of John, which is rather unusual with American biblical commentators. The Baptists in particular, of whom Torell is one, for the most part prefer to get to grips with texts of the Old Covenant, like Daniel, Job, Ezekiel etc., because they see their own nation as the "New Israel" and consequently refer the Old Testament prophecies relating to Israel to themselves.
At the same time, he regrettably relocates this war in heaven, which in the light of biblical statements took place in Jesus’ lifetime, to the time before the creation of human beings. But it is interesting, in this connection, that he quotes this very same scriptural passage (Rev 12,3-4), which as we can see is just another confirmation that this war took place in the time of Jesus. Torell comments on the first verse, Rev 12,3, dealing with the expulsion of Satan and his angels from heaven, but about the second verse, Rev 12,4, he has nothing at all to say. There we are told:
And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth.
Rev 12,3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. 12,4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; Rev 12, 3- 4;
The "woman who was about to bear a child" is of course Mary, the mother of the Lord, biologically speaking. In prophetical terms, however, Satan stands here before Israel, the "wife" of God (Hos 2,16: "And it shall be at that day," saith the LORD, "that thou shalt call Me ‘Ishi’ that is, My husband, and shalt call Me no more ‘Baali’ that is, My Lord" / KJ21). The prophecy relates not just to the persecutions which Mary and Joseph would have to suffer up to the birth of Jesus (Mt 2:13-18). Along with the later temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, referred to above, Satan also manifested in the high priest Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin of those days, whose members declared, by a large majority, "He deserves death" (Mt 26:63-68), not to mention the large sectors of the population of Jerusalem who cried "Crucify him" (Jn 19:15) and "His blood shall be on us and on our children" (Mt 27:22-25).
With the last part of this blood oath, the Jews of that time pronounced a curse on all their descendants right up to today and on into the Millennium. Seeing that they rejected and put to death the Son of God who had come to them as a Savior, they broke their covenant with God, and God dissolved this covenant.
For this breaking of the covenant two thousand years ago, God punished the Jews severely. In the course of the First Jewish War (66-74 AD), in the year 70 the Temple and the entire city of Jerusalem were leveled to the ground by the Romans under Titus (Josephus, Bell, 6,254-259). Sixty years later, in the Third Jewish War (the Bar-Kochba rising, 132-135 AD), the entire region settled by the Jews in Judea was destroyed, and all Israel was driven out into the diaspora. Only in our own time – in the year 1948 – did the Zionists under Theodor Herzl succeed in bringing about the illegal occupation of Palestine (Israel) by the Jews.
As a result of the destruction of the Temple along with the altar of burned offerings in the year 70, the Jews have had no opportunity, right up to the present day, to make the Mosaic sacrifice for sin, which they were permitted to make only on this altar, and only in Jerusalem (Deut 12:13-14). Consequently all Jews since that time have died without forgiveness of their sins, and in the General Resurrection will be condemned to eternal damnation. This was actually prophesied to them by our Lord Jesus Christ, while he was still among them:
Unless you believe that I am He (the Messiah), you will die in your sins.
Jn 8,22 So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?" 8,23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 8,24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He,
you will die in your sins." Jn 8,22-24;
Israel in the light of the Bible.
Based on the Old Testament
God has completely taken away his compassion from the house of
Israel (Hos 1:6). They are no longer his people (Hos 1:9). Only the house
of Judah will be saved by the Lord. Not by war, however, but by his Spirit
(Hos 1:7). And only in the Millennium, when the Son of God has entered on
his thousand years rule on earth (Hos 1:10; 2,18 Eze 34:25; Isa 2:4), will
the Lord once more accept Israel as his people (Hos 2:23; Jer 31:27-28).
Based on the New Testament
It is God’s will that we should listen to his Son (Mt 17:5). This same Son
of God has told us that anyone who rejects him rejects God as well (1Jn
2:23; Lk 10:16; Jn 5:22-23. 15:23). The people of Israel today deny the
Son of God and abuse him as an impostor and blasphemer. As a result of
this denial of the Son, Israel has also rejected the Father and so is a
God-less people. (Jn 8:24)
But seeing that the sacrifice for sin has been offered up by the Son of God on the cross for all human beings, Jews too can be saved if they convert to Jesus and appeal in prayer to this redeeming sacrifice for the forgiveness of their sins. This is what "believing in Jesus Christ" means: faith in his saving death, belief that his vicarious sacrifice releases us from sin. This is what "being saved" means – that is the "Good News", the "Euangelion" (εùαγγέλιον) in Greek. As we can see, it is all quite simple and logical. This is Christian biblical doctrine.
Dee also discourse 111: "The pseudo‒Christian betrayal of the Israelites.")
American Baptist preacher Pastor Steven L. Anderson comes to similar conclusions – though explained from a different point of view – in his sermon against Zionism. Here is an extract from it:
(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)
The true jews are the ones who believe on Christ and rejoice in Christ Jesus. They’re the ones who are God’s chosen people. You say well "who are all these people wearing funny hats? I thought they were the Jews?" Who are all these people living in the nation of Israel? Who are they?" Now, go to … Go if you would to Revelation chapter number 2. Revelation chapter number 2 because … First of all let me say this, and I want to say several things about the people that are living over in Israel today, or even people living in the united states who say that they are Jews, okay … First of all, let me say this. You know, most jews live in Israel or the United States. That’s pretty much where they live, those are the two places. I don’t have the exact numbers in front of me. But, you know, there are millions of jews in Israel and there are millions of Jews in the United States. Those are the two primary places where they reside. But they are also all throughout Europe and other places. And these people will all say "I’m a Jew, I’m Jewish" okay?
Now, first of all, in God’s eyes, they’re not children of Abraham unless they believe on Jesus Christ. Now, couldn’t these people who are the so called jews today, if they believe on Jesus Christ, wouldn’t that make them one of God’s chosen people if they believe on him? Of course. Okay, what about the disciples, I mean they were Jewish, right? Except for Simon the Canaanite. But other than Simon the Canaanite, Jesus’ disciples were of Jewish descent, and yet they believed on Christ, they were his chosen people. They were saved, they were part of the Holy Nation. But those who did not believe on Jesus Christ, he said "you are of your father the devil." You know the ones who claimed to be Jews, but were actually rejecting of the Lord Jesus Christ. He said "you are of your father …" Who? The devil, okay? (…)
And we need to get off this Zionistic, Jew worshipping, bizarre doctrine and just get off this thing of "well are you Jew, are you gentile?". I am neither. I’m a Christian. If anything I’m a Jew. That’s why when I went through the border patrol checkpoint, they said "what country are you a citizen of?" I say "Israel". They say "show me your documentation". I pulled out my Bible and showed them. I did. I said, "let’s turn to Ephesians 2 buddy. I’ll show you where I am a citizen of Israel." Because if anything I’m a Jew, I’m definitely not a gentile. But you know what? I’m in Christ. I’m Abrahams seed. (…)
Who are the real Jews? / Sermon Video against Zionism by Baptist Preacher Pastor Steven L. Anderson , USA
But Pastor Anderson has yet another "leaning": he teaches that God has rejected Israel. That is correct, to the extent that God dissolved the covenant with Israel, when they broke the covenant and handed his Son over to be crucified. Since then Israel has been a God-less people. But the descendants of today’s godless Israelis (Rom 11,1-10), after the catastrophes of the Day of the Wrath of God, at the start of the Millennium, will convert to Jesus Christ and come back to their and our God (Zech 12:9-10). And God will forgive them their frightful sins
on one single day and they will again constitute – along with the Christians – the People of God (Rom 11:25).
The remnant of Israel will return to the mighty God.
Isa 10,20 Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 10,21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. Isa 10,20-21;
I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant.
Jer 50,19 And I will bring Israel back to his pasture and he will graze on Carmel and Bashan, and his desire will be satisfied in the hill country of Ephraim and Gilead. 50,20 ‘In those days and at that time’, declares the LORD, ‘search will be made for the iniquity of Israel, but there will be none; and for the sins of Judah, but they will not be found; for I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant’. Jer 50,19-20;
The LORD pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession.
Mi 7,18 Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love. 7,19 He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea. 7,20 You will give truth to Jacob And unchanging love to Abraham, Which You swore to our forefathers From the days of old. Mi 7,18-20;
And Steven Anderson also has "positioning problems" in relation to the time scheme. He
places the General Resurrection before the Millennium, instead of at The end of the world.
He may confuse the Millennium with the new Heavenly Jerusalem, in the New Creation (Rom 10,1).
But then he again gives the "Friends of Israel" in the Evangelical congregations an appropriate answer to their request that people "pray for Israel", when he says:
(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors
to the site or other authors.)
Hello this is Pastor Steven Anderson from Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, Arizona.
And today I want to talk about Psalm 122, verse 6, which reads "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." A lot of people will quote this scripture unto Christians and say "we need to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, if we want to prosper, we need to LOVE Jerusalem." Now first of all, let me say this … There is a prayer that I think would be appropriate to pray for those that are living over in Israel, and that is that they would be saved! Since 99% of them reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour, we should do like the apostle Paul said in Romans chapter 1. He said "Brethern, my heart’s desire, and prayer to God for Israel, is that they might be saved." If they’re going to have the peace which passeth all understanding, it’s only going to come through salvation, which only comes through believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
So that is the prayer that would actually make sense, if we prayed that the people in Israel would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, and have peace. But a lot of people will try to twist this scripture, and try to use this to say that "we need to just pray for the prosperity of Jerusalem, seek their good, and that they would be protected from all their enemies and that they would win the victory over there in the middle east, and be blessed by God." That is not what this passage teaches, because if we read it in its context, it says "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces." But look at the next two verses. "For my BRETHREN and COMPANIONS’ sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee. Because of the HOUSE OF THE LORD OUR GOD I will seek thy good." So people are just isolating that one phrase "seek their good!" And they’re not even realizing the reason that we would seek their good is because of the house of the Lord our God. But here’s the problem, they don’t have the house of the Lord any longer!
The Old Testament temple was destroyed, and in the New Testament, the Bible makes it clear that the local church is the house of God. That we as God’s people, when we assemble together, make up the house of God in the New Testament. NOT a physical building that was destroyed in AD 70.
Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem / Sermon against the "Friends of Israel" in the evangelical communities, by Baptist Preacher Pastor Steven L. Anderson, USA
And now to come back to our other American Baptist preacher, John S. Torell. He seems to be less well versed in the Bible than his younger brother in faith. In spite of all the biblical proofs adduced above, showing that the war in heaven must be assigned to the time of Jesus, he relocates this event to the pre-Adamic period. And that is all the more astonishing in view of the fact that we actually find no statements in the Bible whatsoever referring to this time before the creation of man.
But to give a concrete answer to the question asked by our visitor HU, "Is there such a thing as a pre-Adamic period?", we are justified in making the following statement:
Yes, according to the Bible of course there is a time before Adam, the first human being.
God created human beings on the sixth day of creation. In the five preceding days of creation, God created the universe on the first day, the earth with its atmosphere on the second, the oceans and plants on the third, the sun and the moon on the fourth day, fishes and birds on the fifth, and finally on the sixth day he created animals and human beings.
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
1Mo 1,26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 1,27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Gen 1,26-27;
That is the "pre-Adamic period", according to the Bible. Anything else interpreters assign to this period is either pure invention, or else (as in the case of Torell here) is in the wrong time frame. The "angelic civilizations" mentioned in his sermon might however be identified, by some stretch of the imagination, in another part of the Bible.
In Gen 6,1-8 we are told about the "sons of God", who came in to the daughters of men.
The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Gen 6,1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 6,2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men
were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 6,3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless
his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
6,4 The giants were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 6,5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6,6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
6,7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." 6,8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. Gen 6, 1– 8;
(See also Table 01: "Chronological table from Adam to Jacob.")
As verses 4 and 7 tell us, this is the "former time", the time before the
Flood, when the sons of God took wives from the sons of men and had children with them. This process of generation by spiritual beings, such as the sons of God are, should not be understood as being of a human and sexual nature, but must have been by spiritual means, in the same way as God himself engendered his Son Jesus of one of the daughters of men. But as we know, God (by contrast with the sons of God) was not so much interested in beauty, but rather in the physical integrity and unspoilt character of this young woman.
And it appears that God had good reason for reserving this kind of engendering to himself, as the descendants of this coupling of the sons of God with the daughters of men were not normal human beings but giants. These giants had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each foot. They fought with the Philistines against Israel, and were armed with bronze spears weighing around 50 kilos. They are actually referred in many biblical passages (e.g. 2Sam 21:20; Num 13:33).
Their fathers too, the sons of God, are also frequently mentioned in the Bible – for instance in Job 1:6 and Job 2:1. And here we can recognize that they appeared regularly before God, the Lord of Hosts, and were obliged to report back on their activities. And when the presumption that these sons of God were angels finds confirmation in the next biblical passage (Jud 1,6), we can surely conclude, from the fact that they regularly gathered in God’s presence to make their report, that it was not the entire host of normal angels who took part in these assemblies, but only selected ones – archangels or angelic princes like Michael (Dan 10:13).
And here, in Jud 1,5-7, we also learn that those of them who broke this taboo and went in to the daughters of men have been "kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day" (The Last Judgment).
And angels who did not keep their own domain (or their rule), but abandoned their proper abode
Jud 1,5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 1,6 And angels who did not keep their own domain (or their rule), but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 1,7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1, 5- 7
To understand this text correctly, you need to know that the text here refers to four separate events where God intervened.
1 God’s saving the people of Israel from Egypt – the Exodus (Ex
2 The punishment of Israel, because of their unbelief, with the 40 years of wandering in the desert (Num 14:21-23).
3 The punishment of those angels who went in to the daughters of men (left their own domain) (Gen 6:2).
The annihilation of the population of Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, because they had practiced gross immorality (homosexuality) by running after "strange flesh" (Gen
We can conclude from these texts that there certainly were sons of God on earth before the flood, angels in other words, who had children with the daughters of men. But we can nonetheless rule out the possibility of any "angelic civilizations" on earth like those suggested by Pastor Torell. Jud 1,6 confirms, these angels "did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode." This means that they came from heaven down to earth – a move evidently forbidden to them by God, and for which they were later punished.
(See alsodiscourse 1133: "How and why the Great Tribulation begins: ‘The beginning of birth pangs’.")
This punishment with eternal bonds and darkness is comparable with the first, physical death of the human being. Whereas every human being basically dies biologically at the end of his or her life, and their spirit then temporarily enters the kingdom of the dead, the
existence of angels is unlimited and is only curtailed as a punishment. They are held prisoner in darkness, just as Satan is bound and forced to spend a thousand years in the abyss (Rev 20:1-3). At the end of days they will all, both human
beings and angels, rise for the Last Judgment and receive judgment on their deeds from the Son of God.
The eternal existence of every human being.
Every individual human being who leaves the amniotic sac
of his or her mother alive in being physically born – who is "born of
water" (amniotic fluid), that is to say (Jn 3:5) – receives a human
spirit (1Cor 2:11) from God (Jn 4:24) with eternal existence (Mt 25:46).
In the first, temporal and earthly part of their existence – in their
life, human beings have the possibility of deciding, in complete freedom,
without any compulsion and with the help of the spirit given them by God,
whether or not they will give this God, the creator of all life, their
complete trust and entire love.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15,42 So also is the resurrection
of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable
body; 15,43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it
is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 15,44 it is sown a natural
body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is
also a spiritual body. 15,45 So also it is written, "The first MAN,
Adam, became a living soul." (Gen 2,7) The last Adam became a
life-giving spirit. 15,46 However, the spiritual is not first,
but the natural; then the spiritual. 15,46 However, the spiritual is not first,
but the natural; then the spiritual. 15,47 The first man is from the earth,
earthy; the second man is from heaven. 15,48 As is the earthy, so also are
those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
15,49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image
of the heavenly. 1Cor 15,42-49;
With this body the human being
will then stand at the Last Judgment
before the Son of God, who has been given the task by God (Jn 5:22, 26-27)
of judging every human being on the basis of their earthly deeds and their
decision for or against God while still alive (Rom 2:16).
(See also Discourse 22: “Is
there such a thing as the immortality of the soul?”)
So if Torell, with his talk of "angelic civilizations", is really referring to these texts about angels, they have been completely torn out of context and are also assigned to the wrong time frame. But if we take a closer look at the website of this preacher, we come up against further false "positionings" – like this appeal of his to Christians to pray for America’s President Trump.
(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)
I would like to make it clear all the same that, in spite of the efforts of all Christians, no human being can lay claim to the glory for this successful achievement, because it was God who moved America to action. Nor was it on account of Donald Trump himself, or because his staff had conducted an effective campaign. Even if Hillary Clinton is a fraudulent politician and a disappointment, with all her moral deficits, all the same no human being can claim the glory for the fact that she lost. All these apparently random events were controlled by God alone!
Now we must be thankful that we have been granted a four year period of grace, in which we will not be persecuted for our Christian faith by a godless government. How will you make use of this time? If you follow sporting events, you may know that the Chicago Cubs have just won the World Series unexpectedly. Donald Trump has won the presidential election. Some like to joke that now would be the right time to buy a lottery ticket. But joking apart, we must be thankful now and give the glory to God! In other words, this not the time to rest on "our" laurels. We must not fall back into passivity. Now is the time to pray more zealously than ever before. The devil is flaming mad, and he will strike back. We can be sure that godless people will want to reverse this latest turn of events.
WHAT LIES BEFORE US
It is important that we continue to support Donald Trump in the following ways:
1. We must pray that no one tries to assassinate Donald Trump.
2. We must pray that God will protect him from evil men, who without
any doubt will try to infiltrate his administration.
3. We must pray that Donald Trump will remain humble and surround
himself with Christian ministers.
The Glory belongs to God
/ [German] – Baptist Preacher Pastor John S. Torell, USA
Well, no one has tried to assassinate Donald Trump – at least not yet. Whether he is or ever has been humble, you might rather venture to doubt. But even if it should be the case that he has been protected against evil men, sadly no one has protected him from himself. And so, governing by decree, he has made one decision after another which has been railroaded through the Senate or ratified by the judges of a state of the union.
And although Pastor Torell sings his exorbitant praises, and practically presents him as a "Messiah", Trump seems rather to be the type of the Antichrist, who will pretend to be the promised Messiah and so be worshiped by the Jews, as well as by some Christian congregations, as the "long awaited Second Coming of Christ".
But let’s wait and see. With his latest decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Trump has in any case effectively destroyed decades of effort on the part of the international community of nations to bring about a two state solution in Palestine. It is to be feared that now the situation may continue to escalate. And through this decision at least, Trump already has a good few dead Israelis on his conscience. And there will probably be more, as well as dead Palestinians.
So should the glory of Trump’s election as President be given to God? As we know, according to the Bible Satan rules the world (see above)! I leave it to the reader to judge. For biblical themes, we have the Bible as a basis and foundation for forming our own opinions. When it comes to worldly themes, truth – as it has been well said – lies "in the eye of the beholder".
The following e-mail from our visitor HU reached me just before I completed this article:
(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors
to the site or other authors.)
Good morning Mr. Horak,
Many thanks for your positive response. I too am of the opinion that it is worth taking a closer look at the doctrine of Mr. Torell. I have now read a lot of his writings and looked at a few lectures. He stands firm by the Bible and establishes nothing without support of the Word, with a clear spirit and plain understanding, such as you practice yourself. He engages too with current events, sees marriage, the family, diet etc. in the light of the Bible, and uncovers the occult practices of some celebrities and politicians who are taken by many people today as a model.
I think it is really the case, and you can see it all over the world, that understanding will increase in the Last Days. The veil is increasingly being lifted, and we understand many things, based on the Word, better than before (Dan 12,4). At the same time there is a lot of rubbish getting published. The weeds are busily growing in the field, alongside the good seed – it is good if you are able to distinguish the spirits.
I am happy and thankful that there are still people who stay close to God’s Word, by contrast with the trend in some churches to water the Word down, to twist it and preach a gospel of affluence.
You are welcome to publish my question below. Please use the initials for my name.
Yes, I agree with you there that understanding is growing in the Last Days. But as we sadly find over and over again, people are also less and less interested in the Bible and in the sermons of biblical commentators. This surely can’t be the fault of the Bible. It may be the fault of some preachers, but I think for the most part it is the fault of the people themselves. They let themselves be unduly caught up with beautiful things that seem worth aspiring to, as well as with the anxieties and crises of this world, and let their spirit wholly absorbed with such things (Mt 13:22). They are hardly
approachable at all when it comes to biblical topics, and so have no idea what kind of thing to expect. And if you talk to them about it, they just don’t want to know.
In connection with this, the information service "TOPIC" cited a study a few years ago, which explains this very phenomenon:
The less people know, the less they want to know.
TOPIC readers are familiar with the problem: sensational
articles, conveying plenty of background information on burning issues,
meet with indifference or rejection when we try to share them. You might
suppose that when people know very little about important subjects, they
would be inclined to absorb information which gives them a convincing
account of the subject as a sponge soaks up water. But the opposite is in
fact the case, as recent studies have shown.
With reference to your other statements about Pastor Torell in your second e-mail:
"He stands firm by the Bible and establishes nothing without support of the Word, with a clear spirit and plain understanding. (…) He engages too with current events, sees marriage, the family, diet etc. in the light of the Bible, and uncovers the occult practices of some celebrities and politicians who are taken by many people today as a model.""
- I have found an article of his on the "European-American Evangelistic Crusades" website, and here his "clear spirit and plain understanding" are perhaps less evident:
(Texts enclosed in a black frame are quoted from visitors to the site or other authors.)
June 4, 2017
The Paris Climate Agreement was negotiated and signed by 196 countries on April 22, 2016. Susan Biniaz, an attorney working as a legal advisor for the U.S. State Department, served as the chief American negotiator. However, John Holdren, who served as an assistant to Barack Obama for Science and Technology for eight years, in reality directed the American response to the negotiations. He is known for his infamous textbook, "Ecoscience: Population, Resources, Environment," published in 1970, which advocated forced sterilization and abortions, and loss of liberty.
President Donald Trump withdrew the United States from the Paris Climate Agreement on June 1, 2017. One of the major reasons for the withdrawal was that it proposed the transfer billions of dollars to third world nations, and thus in reality lowering the standard of living in the United States. Millions of jobs would have been lost, since strict enforcement on pollution would have closed many factories, while the agreement allowed China, India and a number of other nations to continue polluting for a number of years and essentially made it impossible for American companies to compete on the global market.
In this video presentation I will tie in the various connections with the dismantling of the American industry, Holdren’s proposal for a planetary regime in 1970 and the latest Bilderburger meeting on June 1-4, 2017 in Chantilly, Virginia. Barack Obama diligently worked to bring the United States to the point where this nation would give up its sovereignty and join a world federation that Holdren called the "Planetary Regime".
PARIS CLIMATE AGREEMENT Justification of Trump’s decision. / Video sermon against the Paris Climate Agreement, Baptist Preacher Pastor John S. Torell, USA
So as to make it easier for readers to understand my differentiated attitude to Pastor Torell’s statements, I would like to suggest a comparison. Let’s just suppose that the Jews had not rejected their Messiah and condemned him to death two thousand years ago, but had recognized and welcomed him as the Son of God.
This is perhaps a consideration which might have occurred at the time to the high priest Caiaphas with his adherents in the Sanhedrin, the elders and scribes. What would then have happened? The Old Testament prophesies that the Messiah will come as a king and rule over Israel.
At the time of Jesus, Israel had no king. Under the Roman occupation there may have been governors, but Jewish judicial authority, even for capital crimes, was vested exclusively in the Sanhedrin. This of course meant that its members enjoyed a certain position of power. And with the appearance of the Messiah, their power and influence would have been lost. Quite possibly they would have been reluctant to accept that without a struggle.
Here is a commentary on this, from the website "Der Prozess Jesu aus Sicht des Jüdischen Rechts" ["The trial of Jesus from the point of view of Jewish law"]:
"Occasionally we find it asserted that the high priests, elders and scribes were simply hardened criminals, in the habit of breaking every law in order to achieve their hateful objective. (Among these objectives we should not leave out of account the securing and extension of their influence and of the position of power they had attained to, increasing their own wealth and the like; any obstacle to their achieving these goals would of course have to be forestalled with all the resources at their disposal.)"
Now if Jesus had been accepted by his people, the Thousand Year Kingdom of Peace of the Son of God – the Millennium – would actually have dawned two thousand years ago. Caiaphas too must have known this, since he was after all, as high priest, the top ranking scribe and all these things had been prophesied in the Old Testament. And then the world and humanity would have been spared the following two thousand years of criminal rulers, wars and billions of deaths.
(See also chapter 10: "The Millennium")
But Caiaphas and his scribes chose to secure their own private and personal prebends, and preferred to condemn the Son of God to death on the cross. And here we come to the point of resemblance with Pastor John S. Torell, and his defense of Trump’s decision to back out of the climate agreement. The Paris Climate Agreement could still prevent climate catastrophe and give humanity a chance of leaving a healthy environment to their children and grandchildren.
But Trump and his politicians chose rather to secure their own personal American benefits of office, and by withdrawing from the climate agreement have delivered the death blow to this last ditch attempt. Along with China, the USA is the country with the highest emissions of greenhouse gas. It is now to be feared that China, India and Russia will likewise appeal to that "global competitiveness" Trump keeps harping on about, to justify their reneging (at least to some extent) on the climate deal.
And so the reproach of our Lord Jesus Christ to the scribes and Pharisees of the time can be read in a double sense, if we refer these statements to the worldly conditions of today.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self‒indulgence.
Mt 23,25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self‒indulgence. 23,26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 23,27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 23,28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.. Mt 23,25-28;
Although I generally see these verses as a reference to the Catholic church, to whom the statements on the "successors" of the Jewish Sanhedrin apply with equal validity – they fit Trump and his American Evangelical supporters just as well.
Jewish high priest, Catholic bishop.
The "Historic Costumes Society" has just changed the names.
So I would advise our visitor, Mr. HU, that if he wants an explanation of the Bible from an American Baptist preacher, I would be more inclined to recommend Pastor Steven Anderson from Tempe, Arizona, whom I have quoted earlier. If we leave out of account minor errors (of which I pointed out two above, and which are going to be found in all biblical commentators, myself included), he is really one of the best around. And as far as I know, he gives his sermons in German translation as well (the videos even with synchronized translation).
If I don’t try to convert you to my own website, this is not because I am not convinced that you will really and truly find that it is one of the best sources of biblical information worldwide, with hundreds of interpretations, analyses and comparisons that are in conformity with the Bible. But I am a servant of my Lord and God. And if he leaves it to the free will of each human being whether to decide for him or against him, I do not want to ignore the will of my God and put any kind of pressure on people to acquire the basis of their faith from my website.
This form of compelled "conversion" we find chiefly in the Catholic church, which in former times converted the Indios of South America under threat of being burned at the stake2). The God of true Christianity has left it to the free will of the individual when, where, how and whether he or she will decide for or against this God. That is the biblical teaching – and that, and nothing else, is what you will find at Immanuel.at.
Research into the possible maximum age of human beings established some 50 years ago that the chromosomes and their propagation are crucial in this connection. Chromosomes are long, spindle‒shaped structures made up of DNA. Their propagation mechanism involves their losing, every time they propagate, a part of their ends, known as a "telomere". The total available length of the telomeres thus determines the maximum possible age of every human being. And this biological upper limit has been experimentally demonstrated by Leonard Hayflick, a gerontologist (science of aging) and professor of anatomy at the University of California in San Francisco. It comes to just 120 years! Since then this limit has been known to science as the "Hayflick Limit".
2) For centuries the Roman Catholic church has been missionizing many of these peoples, and with some of them it has been successful in converting the greater part of the population to the Catholic faith - even if the Catholic Spanish and Portuguese practically exterminated half a million American Indians in the name of the Catholic church in Southern and Central America in the sixteenth century. Nonetheless Brazil, for instance, is 93% Catholic today, although these so‒called "Christians" do not have any kind of problem, after Mass on a Sunday morning, about praying to the spirits of the earth and the forest - who have now been promoted to Catholic saints – in the afternoon, and sacrificing to them in hope of a good harvest. In Africa we find comparable practices involving shamanism and voodoo cults. This is Catholicism as it really exists in these countries.
These people were not converted to Christianity – rather they robbed of all their goods and made into Catholics in order to increase the wealth and the power of the Catholic church and the Catholic hidalgo families in Europe of the time. The following statement by the Kazike Hatuey, a Cuban Indian chieftain still famous to this day, has come down to us from that period. Before being burned at the stake he was asked by the conquistadors’ Franciscan friar if he would not be converted, in order to go to heaven.
"The Kazike thought about it for a moment, and then asked the friar if the Spanish Christians would also be going to heaven. Certainly, said the friar, all good Christians go to heaven, including the Spaniards! The Kazike answered immediately and without any further thought that he would rather not go there then - he would prefer to go to hell, to get away from the company of such very cruel people."