Is there no such thing as conversion to Christianity because all Christians are already chosen by God? / Anonymous 00, 2006-03-09
Will the weeds perhaps at some point turn into wheat?
Is a child who dies in his innocence at the age of 5 saved?
Do we not have to decide for Christ in order to be saved?
Is there a "biblical doctrine" of the election of the Gentiles?
I would be happy to go along with your argument in the discourse above (Discourse 83 / FH) – if it weren’t for Romans 9, for example. Also somebody would have to be able to explain to me conclusively
whether the weeds which are supposed to mature next to the wheat should therefore remain in place, so that they can
become wheat at some future time nevertheless. That is if we are going to refer to this parable at least. The weeds
are left there, according to the scripture, so that the wheat will not be pulled up before it is time. In any case,
the fact is that the tares were tares and remain tares, and it is the same with the wheat. Since the tare is a plant
that looks quite similar to wheat, only at the end does it become visible what is what. Wheat bears fruit and tares
do not.
Imagine if you had been born in Hiroshima, Japan. And at the age of 5, the question of the meaning of
life and the existence of God occurs to you for the first time. But just at that moment the bomb drops. Too late.
The boy in Japan did not choose when or where he would be born. He didn’t choose his parents, and he was no party to
the development of the atom bomb. Nor did he have friends who told him of the need to convert before the bomb
dropped. Only he didn’t choose that either. But if he didn’t choose it, who did? Chance? Did he just draw the short
straw? Or did God know that the boy would never convert? How?
"So then it does not depend on
the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." (Romans 9, 16). If you as a Christian are a vessel
for the glory of God and believe that is even a smidgen down to your merit, or even the result of your personal
"decision", you would be the first "vessel" to answer back to its creator and say what kind of vessel it would like
to be (Romans 9, 20 and 21).
On the other hand, your quote from Wilhelm Busch is excellent. Only you must not combine it with the BIBLICAL doctrine of election.
I do not find the word precognition in the Bible (is that perhaps because of my translation?). But the words "predestined",
"chosen" etc. occur frequently. It takes a bit of courage to ignore that, I think.
But however that may be, the problem only
arises when somebody
a) ) thinks he can deduce from the doctrine of election that he should not evangelize at
all (hypercalvinism), or
b) ) thinks that it is ultimately down to the "man who wills or the man who runs", because
then only the "running or willing" would have to be strengthened, which would put us in the same camp as ProChrist.*
(Anonymous)
*) Since 1993, interdenominational mass evangelistic meetings have been held regularly in Germany under the name ProChrist. The central event is broadcast by satellite to more than 1300 venues in 18 European countries, most of them the premises of free church and regional church congregations.
In your comment above you write:
I would be happy to go along with your argument in the discourse above (Discourse 83 / FH) – if it weren’t for Romans 9,
for example. Also somebody would have to be able to explain to me conclusively whether the weeds which are supposed to
mature next to the wheat should therefore remain in place, so that they can become wheat at some future time
nevertheless. That is if we are going to refer to this parable at least. The weeds are left there, according to the
scripture, so that the wheat will not be pulled up before it is time. In any case, the fact is that the tares
were tares and remain tares, and it is the same with the wheat. Since the tare is a plant that looks quite
similar to wheat, only at the end does it become visible what is what. Wheat bears fruit and tares do not.
Your statement in your commentary above:
"In any case, the fact is that the tares were tares and remain tares, and it is the same with the
wheat"
is unbiblical and therefore wrong!
I am surprised that you do not know this. According to the Bible, the tares may very well become wheat. The best example
of this is Paul himself, who before his conversion was called Saul and was a relentless persecutor of Christians in
Judea on behalf of the Jewish Sanhedrin. He was also involved in the persecution and arrest of some Christians, (Acts
8:3) and was present at the stoning of Stephen, as he himself later confessed (Acts 7:58).
He was then on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians who had found shelter there with sympathizers, in order to bring them to the high
priests in Jerusalem, when the Lord Jesus called out to him from heaven: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" This
event subsequently brought him to the biblical Christian faith, and the Lord gave him the new name Paul. (Acts 9:1-30).
Paul then had some very helpful revelations for us Christians in his later life, especially about the appearance of
the first Antichrist, the Second Coming of the Lord and the resurrection and Rapture of Christian believers. In
particular, he very successfully carried out evangelization among the Gentiles as far away as Italy.
So Paul was undoubtedly among the "tares". But then he became "wheat" – not even the Calvinists can deny that. So there is no such thing as predestination.
Imagine if you had been born in Hiroshima, Japan. And at the age of 5, the question of the meaning
of life and the existence of God occurs to you for the first time. But just at that moment the bomb drops. Too late.
The boy in Japan did not choose when and where he would be born. He didn’t choose his parents, and he was no party
to the development of the atom bomb. Nor did he have friends who told him of the need to convert before the bomb
dropped. Only he didn’t choose that either. But if he didn’t choose it, who did? Chance? Did he just draw the short
straw? Or did God know that the boy would never convert? How?
Hardly any child would ask questions about the "meaning of life" at the age of 5. That is why in
the biblical Christian faith we do not have infant baptism, as the Catholic Church does, but adult baptism. Such a
decision is possible in adulthood, but not in infancy.
However, you do not have to worry about the little children. The Lord says of them:
For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
Mt 18,10 0-11 ‘See that you do not despise one of these little ones. 18,11
For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven’. Mt 18,10-11;
So if one of these children dies, you don’t have to worry about their salvation. And anyone who comes to
die in a sudden accident as an adult is either a converted Christian, in which case he is saved; or he has not decided
for Jesus Christ and recognized the Creator of all being in creation and repented, in which case he is lost. In my
opinion, we cannot – as the Calvinists see it – be at the mercy of the arbitrariness of a God who, according to
Scripture, is absolute justice himself. We cannot pass this responsibility on to God, but must make the decision for or
against God ourselves, as adult human beings – no matter where we are on the face of this earth.
But quite
apart from this, some of the Lord’s hearers in his own time reflected along the same lines. In Luke 13:1-5 they thought
that those 18 persons on whom the tower of Siloam fell were punished by God for their sins. But the Lord told them, "I
tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Finally, I agree in part with your statement above, where you say:
"Or did God know that the boy would never convert? How?"
However, I would say that God knew what decision this boy would have made, if he had been able to live
on.
That is exactly the scriptural statement in Rom 8,29 and 1Pet 1,1
Rom 8,29 For those God fore-knew (proegnw, proegno
/ as in Rom 11:34, while "chosen" would be exelexato, exelexato / as in Eph 1:4) he also predestined
1Pet 1,1 … To God’s elect, 1,2 …
according to the fore-knowledge of God the Father
God in His omniscience, before the foundation of the world, has recognized those people
who will convert in their lives and decide to believe in Jesus Christ, and has entered them in the Book of Life
(Ex 32:32), from which however one can also be erased! (Rev 3:5). But this would actually confute the teaching of the
Calvinists. Because if I see it correctly, you stand for the view that people do not have to or cannot decide and
convert, because some are already chosen, and the others have no chance of conversion in the first place?
If God
has chosen people who are then nevertheless erased from the Book of Life, then God would have made a mistake in the
selection and that is impossible with an omnipotent God. So there is no predestination.
But perhaps we should here give a brief account of this "Book of Life", which is also called the "Book of the Lamb" in the Bible, for those readers who are unfamiliar with it. In this Book of Life, God has inscribed the names of all those
people who will make a decision for God – which means choosing to have faith in Jesus Christ – in the course of their
lives.
In the Old Testament, the Book of Life is mentioned only once, in the Psalms:
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Ps 69,21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
69,22 May the table set before them become a snare; may it become retribution and a trap.
69,23 May their eyes be darkened so
that they cannot see, and their backs be bent for ever.
69,24 Pour out your wrath on them; let your fierce anger
overtake them.
69,25 May their place be deserted; let there be no-one to dwell in their tents.
69,26 For they
persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
69,27 Charge them with crime upon crime; do not
let them share in your salvation.
69,28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with
the righteous.
69,29 But as for me, afflicted and in pain – may your salvation, God, protect me. Ps 69,20-29;
Here David complains about his persecutors and asks the Lord to erase them from the Book of Life.
Thereby he reveals to us, in what he says here, that only the righteous will be registered in that book.
In the New Testament we then have Paul, who in his letter to the Philippians mentions the book of life and here writes,
conversely, about his co-workers whose names are registered there:
Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Phil 4,1 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy
and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way, dear friends! 4,2 I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of
the same mind in the Lord. 4,3 Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my
side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book
of life. Phil 4,1-3;
And then in Revelation we have exactly six biblical passages in which the Book of Life is mentioned. For
the sake of simplicity, I will list these texts here without their context:
Rev 3,5 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will
never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his
angels.
Rev 13,8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast – all whose names have not been written
in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Rev 17,8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go
to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life
from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will
come.
Rev 20,12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.
Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had
done as recorded in the books.
Rev 20,15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into
the lake of fire.
Rev 21,27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
In Rev 3,5 above we learn that the those who overcome remain registered in the book of life, so it
follows that those who do not overcome will be erased from it. In Rev 13,8 we then learn that at this time no biblical
Christian believers are living on earth anymore, because it says that "all who dwell on the earth" will worship the
beast (the first Antichrist, who will be killed by the Lord at his Second Coming for the Rapture of true believers) and
are thus not written in the Book of Life.
Rev 17,8 then mentions the appearance (resurrection) of the first
Antichrist, now as the second Antichrist, about whom the people still living on earth will wonder, because he can work
miracles and is therefore worshipped by all. After that Rev 20:12 and 15 describe the Last Judgment, where the dead are
judged according to their works, which are recorded in the Books of works.
(See also Discourse 86: "The first and the second Antichrist.")
Rev 21,27 then speaks of the new, the
second creation of God, of the new earth and of the new city of Jerusalem, which lies foursquare. Its length, according
to Rev 21,16, is "12,000 stadia; its length and its width and its height are equal." If 1 stadium is reckoned to be
about 185 meters, that is a length of 2,200 kilometers and the width of the city is the same. And now we are told that
its height is likewise 2,220 kilometers.
So the new Jerusalem is a mountain the shape of a pyramid (Rev 21:15-16,
"made ready as a bride adorned for her husband" (Rev. 21,2)) with a length, width and height of 12,000
stadia, i.e. 2,220 km. The sides of the new Jerusalem are thus exactly a thousand times as long as the sides of the
earthly Jerusalem that will be built in the Millennium, likewise quadrangular, of 2,220 m or 4500 rods (Eze 48:16).
Can we conclude from this that the new earth will also be a thousand times bigger than our present planet? It
seems probable. Because such an enormous mountain, with an extent like the complete western European area today, and
above all with a height of more than 2000 km, would be difficult to imagine on such a small earth.
(See also Chapter 14: "The New Creation.)
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who
has mercy." (Romans 9, 16). If you as a Christian are a vessel for the glory of God and believe that is even a smidgen
down to your merit, or even the result of your personal "decision", you would be the first "vessel" to answer back to
its creator and say what kind of vessel it would like to be (Romans 9, 20 and 21).
So it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9,16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Rom 9,16;
Here, in Rom 9,16, Paul writes quite correctly about the mercy of God. Of course, it is
up to God on whom he has mercy. But God, in his grace, has left it up to man’s decision whether to
accept this grace or not. Man is and has always been a sinful nature. Through the sacrificial death of the Son of God on
the cross, God has pardoned all men who want to accept it. But that is just it: all who want to accept it.
And there Paul himself is the best example of this.
We have seen above that only the righteous are inscribed in the Book of Life. As Saul, Paul incurred much guilt when he even had a Christian blessed by God, Stephen, stoned to death. So he was indeed an unrighteous man. Only when our Lord Jesus Christ intervened from heaven and stopped him in
his tracks did he change his mind and become the greatest evangelist of his time.
0
However, here one thing is clear: this was a voluntary decision on Paul’s part and he could have refused it. The Lord did not say, You must. On the contrary, the Lord only asked: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?". So Paul could have decided differently. It is not up to us whether our sins are forgiven. They are forgiven by the merciful God in His Son Jesus Christ, for every person who accepts it. But that means only everyone who actually does accept it.
Predestination, however, teaches that man does not have to accept anything because he is already chosen. But the fact is that if a person does not consciously accept this grace, then he remains in unrighteousness and is thrown into hell. It follows that predestination is a dangerous
false doctrine.
Now for your second Bible quote, for the convenience of the reader here is the full text of the passage you refer to:
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Rom 9,20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? ‘Shall what is
formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?’
9,21 Does not the potter have the
right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? Rom 9,20-21;
First of all, we are not taking issue with God, but with those people who think that they have already
been chosen and that all other people have no chance of being saved. Have you not read what Paul writes:
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.."
(2Cor 3,17;)
And the Lord God himself speaks to all the nations of this world:
‘Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
(Isa 45,22)
As for Paul’s statement above, in Rom 9:20-21, this refers to man’s physical body (clay), not
his spirit. But the Calvinists think that only they are the "vessels to the glory of God" and all other people
are just "spittoons". What kind of understanding of God do you have? – Your God evidently decides everything himself in
the manner of a dictator. And those whom he gathers around him are puppets who do not to say or decide anything for
themselves, but just blindly obey their "leader".
That is not our God and Lord in heaven! God is our creator,
yes, right. However, God not only created us with our physical body, but God also gave man part of his spirit (Gen
2:7; 6:3). For what purpose do you think God gave man a spirit with which he can think, choose and decide what actions
to take? This is what Paul himself says: Abraham decided in his spirit to believe God and this was
accounted to him as righteousness.
What does Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’
Rom 4,3 What does Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was
credited to him as righteousness.’
4,4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an
obligation. 4,5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as
righteousness. 4,6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits
righteousness apart from works: 7,7 ‘Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8
Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.’" Rom 4,3-8;
And if you are suggesting, in your commentary above, that my being a child of God is not "the result of
a personal decision", then our Lord Jesus Christ tells us something quite different:
I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges (DECIDES to acknowledge), me before others the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.
Luc 12,8 ‘I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others
(DECIDES), the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.
12,9 But whoever
disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. Luc 12,8-9;
That is why God actually gave man his spirit (1Jn 4:13), so that he would not do everything he is
commanded like a puppet, but so that he can think and ponder – and choose – whether he wants to make a
certain decision or not!!! It is not for nothing that we find in the NT innumerable calls of our Lord Jesus Christ to
believe, that is, to make a decision in our spirit.
Here the molded vessel has said to the potter: I want to confess Jesus
Christ. And God was pleased, and blessed his new child.
Whoever believes in him (decides for him) is not condemned, but whoever does not believe (decide) stands condemned already because they have not believed.
Jn 3,14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man
must be lifted up, 3,15 ‘that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.’ 3,16 For God so loved
the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 3,17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 3,18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not
believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Jn 3,14-18;
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.
Jn 3,36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.. Jn 3,36;
The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
Jn 11,25 Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. The one
who believes in me will live, even though they die; 11,26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.
Do you believe this?’ Jn 11,25-26;
Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
Jn 12,44 Then Jesus cried out, ‘Whoever believes in me
does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. Jn 12,44;
So that no-one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
Jh 12,46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no-one who
believes in me should stay in darkness. 12,47 ‘If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge
that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. Jh 12,46-47;
Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mk 16,15 He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to
all creation. 16,16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will
be condemned.’ Mk 16,15-16;
On the other hand, your quote from Wilhelm Busch is excellent. Only you must not combine it with the
BIBLICAL doctrine of election. I do not find the word precognition in the Bible (is that perhaps because of my
translation?). But the words "predestined", "chosen" etc. occur frequently. It takes a bit of courage to ignore that, I
think.
Are you saying here that Wilhelm Busch’s sermon is unbiblical? It was Wilhelm Busch and his sermons that
brought me to believe in Jesus Christ. I think it is rather your view that "tares can never become wheat" that has been
clearly refuted as unbiblical, when we look at the transformation of Saul into Paul. When I search the Bible, I find
exactly zero results for the term "predestined". And that is not because of my translation either!
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8,1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in
Christ Jesus, 8,2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free
from the law of sin and death. 8,3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,
God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the
flesh,8,4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live
according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8,1-4;
With your view that a person does not have to decide for Jesus Christ, you run the risk of ending up in
hell. Is that what you really want??
Paul then specifies, in the passage above, those people for whom there is no
condemnation. And as if incidentally he also explains to us why God issued the commandments. He does not need to
emphasize this point, because the connection was obvious to the Jews who had studied their Torah diligently.
However, among the Christians who left the study of the Bible to the Catholic and other "clergy" (not without the help
of the Catholic church’s putting it off limits to laypersons), the biblical commandments were used as bugbears to
intimidate the faithful and to obtain money for the forgiveness of sins by the appointed reverend dignitary.
The
commandments of God – the Law of Moses – do not demand, if they are observed, that man be obedient or humble. The law
demands that man be RIGHTEOUS! The commandments were given by God "in order that the righteous
requirement of the law might be fully met in us". And if we now summarize Paul’s thoughts above, he makes the
following statements:
The law of the flesh means fulfilling the commandments without faith (spirit) (= Israel), and
leads to death through the sinful (incapable) flesh.
The law of the spirit means fulfilling the commandments in
faith in Christ Jesus (= biblical Christianity), and gives life in the spirit.
The law (in the commandments) thus demands righteousness, that man be righteous in all
that he does and leaves undone. The first attempt to entrust this obligation to man was not successful because man was
too weak (sinful) in his flesh. Therefore, God had mercy and sent his Son, who in this very same flesh resisted sin and
brought salvation to mankind.
But for those people who are looking for God, this means: the commandments alone
(OT) are not the solution, this is a dead end in which all Mosaic Jews and very many people in worldly Christianity are
stuck. You have to come to faith in Jesus Christ – and only in Jesus Christ, without "Mary", the "saints" or
other idols found in the worldly religions – to have your sins forgiven by God.
This is a very important
point, especially for people who want to convert, because the Catholic Church with its lying dogmas and false teachings
likewise lures people onto a false track.
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.’
Jn 14,15 ‘If you love me, keep my commands. 4,16 And I will ask
the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you for ever –
4,17 the Spirit of
truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives
with you and will be in you. 4,18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
4,19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 4,20 On
that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 4,21 Whoever has my
commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love
them and show myself to them.’
4,22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, ‘But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?’
4,23 Jesus replied, ‘Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them,
and we will come to them and make our home with them. 4,24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These
words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. Jn 14,15-25;
Calvinist predestination is so dangerous because it prevents people from testifying their love to God.
Love for God is not earthly or emotional, mixed up with random feelings or other psychological manifestations. The love
of God is to be understood exclusively spiritually, and shows itself in the observance of his commandments. When man
decides of his own free will to keep the commandments of God, that is love for God!
The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: we know it by the Spirit he gave us.
(1Jn 3,24)
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
(1Jn 5,2)
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
(1Jn 5,3)
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
(2Jn 6)